Every single occurrence of "Cancel" is translated as "Zaniechaj", across entire Plasma Desktop. This is a serious bug, because it causes the entire Plasma ecosystem to be inconsistent with literally every other piece of software in Polish language.

Since the beginning of GUI applications in Polish "Cancel" was translated as "Anuluj". Introducing a different translation breaks existing documentation in a fundamental way, is confusing and jarring. It's as if someone replaced the English "Cancel" with "Repudiate".

Lukasz, your call - but usually diverging from the common translation used by most of the other programs does not help the user experience.

Thank you Luigi for bringing me into this discussion.
It's true that "anuluj" is used in most software. I changed it to "zaniechaj" cause it seems more natural to me. I didn't know about the Mac thing until this thread but it seems their thoughts were similar.
From the posts I've seen, it's a battle between what's used the most and what's correct to use.

It's not true that since the beginning of GUI applications in Polish "Cancel" was translated as "Anuluj".
You can see that in Mac's dictionary from 1992 at
https://aresluna.org/attached/terminology/glossaries/mac
"cancel" is transalted as "poniechaj".

It could be "poniechaj" as well but for me this word seems like slipping away from normal day usage. You cannot say this about "zaniechaj" though.


Bringing foreign words like "forsake", "abandon" or "repudiate" for comparison doesn't make sense to me. You cannot translate one language into another literally and you have many contexts. As far as I know, "anuluj" has been introduced only in software and is not used in normal day language.


Using word "absurd" is unnecessarily emotionally loaded. I think it stems from the side one chooses between what's used the most and what's correct to use.


As far as I know, it's not that something is absurd or not but that something is imposed or not.
In German, one translates "cancel" as "abbrechen" and not as "annullieren". Both words exist in German though.


It seems to me, that some users want to have something that they are accustomed to and blends with the world, paying no attention to language correct substitutes.

(In reply to NSLW from comment #3)

> It's not true that since the beginning of GUI applications in Polish
> "Cancel" was translated as "Anuluj".
> You can see that in Mac's dictionary from 1992 at
> https://aresluna.org/attached/terminology/glossaries/mac
> "cancel" is transalted as "poniechaj".

This was a single instance many years ago, and literally every computer course, and every piece of software for both Mac, iOS, Windows, Android and web uses "Anuluj" as a translation of "Cancel" for a least a couple of decades. This is true also of official software produced by the Polish state.

For example, this is a user manual for official Polish company registry (KRS):

https://ekrs.ms.gov.pl/s24/documents/10184/0/PortalS24+-+Dokumentacja+U%C5%BCytkownika+S24_2.9.0.pdf/55e95b95-31e2-44af-beb3-201ca77f087f

There are plenty of "Anuluj" buttons meaning "Cancel" and none "Zaniechaj". The same is true for every other piece of software. I don't know a single one that uses "Zaniechaj".

The "Poniechaj" on an early 90's Mac systems is seen today as a curiosity, and not something to bring back. Even Apple abandoned that translation and uses "Anuluj" for "Cancel".


> As far as I know, "anuluj" has
> been introduced only in software and is not used in normal day language.

This is wrong. "Anuluj" is used outside of context of software, i.e. as "Anuluj zamówienie" - "Cancel an order" within context of shopping / ordering inventory.

> It seems to me, that some users want to have something that they are
> accustomed to and blends with the world, paying no attention to language
> correct substitutes.

Translating "Cancel" as "Anuluj" is linguistically correct and has more that 20 years of tradition and. KDE is not a place for introducing someone's personal idea of brand new "technically correct" translations, which break with common usage in such a fundamental way.

This is a serious bug, which brakes all the documentation and tutorials, which mention "Anuluj". This even makes giving instructions over the phone more complicated, as one could always assume that saying "press Cancel" / "naciśnij Anuluj" has the same meaning in all the software. 


Please correct this ASAP, this bug is very visible and very discrediting.

(In reply to grzebo from comment #4)
> (In reply to NSLW from comment #3)
> This was a single instance many years ago, and literally every computer
> course, and every piece of software for both Mac, iOS, Windows, Android and
> web uses "Anuluj" as a translation of "Cancel" for a least a couple of
> decades. This is true also of official software produced by the Polish state.

It's not true that this was a single instance many years ago. It lasted well over a decade till ca. 2007, when the Mac OS X 10.5 decided to switch to what predominant Windows OS has been using.


> There are plenty of "Anuluj" buttons meaning "Cancel" and none "Zaniechaj".
> The same is true for every other piece of software. I don't know a single
> one that uses "Zaniechaj".

It's no wonder that most software uses "anuluj". I admit that.


> The "Poniechaj" on an early 90's Mac systems is seen today as a curiosity,
> and not something to bring back. Even Apple abandoned that translation and
> uses "Anuluj" for "Cancel".

It's an subjective opinion that "poniechaj" in Macs is a curiosity. It's not hard to find opinions on the internet that are opposite to the one presented. There are layman opinions but professional as well, like this one
https://sjp.pwn.pl/poradnia/haslo/poniechac;7346.html

We don't know why Apple has abandoned its first translation. It could as well be market pressure and not language correctness. It would be very sad if that was the reason.


> > As far as I know, "anuluj" has
> > been introduced only in software and is not used in normal day language.
>
> This is wrong. "Anuluj" is used outside of context of software, i.e. as
> "Anuluj zamówienie" - "Cancel an order" within context of shopping /
> ordering inventory.

You're right. I believe you could find some rare usages of it, which doesn't stem from software business.
However, didn't your phrase come with the advert of on-line shops? I know other phrase for "cancelling order" which was certainly more popular before foreign on-line shops went in and before we had to click to "cancel order".


> Translating "Cancel" as "Anuluj" is linguistically correct and has more that
> 20 years of tradition and. KDE is not a place for introducing someone's
> personal idea of brand new "technically correct" translations, which break
> with common usage in such a fundamental way.

I referenced one of professional opinion that says, it's not quite linguistically correct in term of tenses.
Translating "Cancel" as "Anuluj" is certainly correct in terms of software customs.

In my opinion, until now, nobody dared or cared to question the status quo.

(In reply to NSLW from comment #5)

> Translating "Cancel" as "Anuluj" is certainly correct in terms of software
> customs.
> 
> In my opinion, until now, nobody dared or cared to question the status quo.

I agree that in theory changing Polish translation of "Cancel" to "Zaniechaj" could be a good idea - but only if it was done in all the software simultaneously. Unfortunately, this will not happen without intervention of the state (i.e. a resolution by the Rada Języka Polskiego).

KDE is not the place for "daring to question the status quo", which causes jarring inconsistency between:
- KDE and Gnome / GTK apps,
- KDE and online commercial apps,
- KDE and official state apps,
- KDE and mobile apps,
- KDE and Windows apps,
- KDE and Mac apps.

Consistency is an important part of User Experience. Buttons for "OK" and "Cancel" (translated as "Anuluj") are instantly recognizable. This change of translation slows down users' workflow, as they pause to take a second look at a button that they used to recognize instantly.

This change is as significant as moving window controls to the left - and KDE allows for configuring the placement of those buttons.


KDE is used by many people (myself included) for daily serious work. This is not a place for linguistic experiments, even if they would be technically correct. Besides, after decades of continued usage the meaning of "Anuluj" is ingrained in the language. It is very important to make switching to KDE easy for users of other OSes, this translation makes it harder, with no good reason.

W pełni podzielam opinie Krzysztofa i Grzecho. Na początku wydawało mi się to tylko zabawnym udziwnieniem, ale na dłuższą metę jest męczące i mylące. Rozumiem dobre intencje autora, ale takie tłumaczenie wiele nie naprawia pod względem językowym, a jest zupełnie niepraktyczne.

I agree that the translation should go back to Anuluj. Users have been used to this one in years. Changing it in one program just confuses them.

If someone wants to change the typical translation, it should be done in all software (at least Open Source) at the same time, I think. We have had a lot of differences between Gnome and KDE and other translations and it is never to the good to the user.

+1 to revert

(In reply to grzebo from comment #6)
> I agree that in theory changing Polish translation of "Cancel" to
> "Zaniechaj" could be a good idea - but only if it was done in all the
> software simultaneously. Unfortunately, this will not happen without
> intervention of the state (i.e. a resolution by the Rada Języka Polskiego).

That's not true. As far as I know, state hasn't constituted any wording standard, so it has nothing to intervene into.
If the change has to be made in all software simultaneously, then any change would be impossible. It has to start somewhere.


> KDE is used by many people (myself included) for daily serious work. This is
> not a place for linguistic experiments, even if they would be technically
> correct. Besides, after decades of continued usage the meaning of "Anuluj"
> is ingrained in the language. It is very important to make switching to KDE
> easy for users of other OSes, this translation makes it harder, with no good
> reason.

This is not a linguistic experiment. "Zaniechaj" is a legitimate word.


> Consistency is an important part of User Experience. Buttons for "OK" and
> "Cancel" (translated as "Anuluj") are instantly recognizable. This change of
> translation slows down users' workflow, as they pause to take a second look
> at a button that they used to recognize instantly.

"Zaniechaj" is instantly recognizable as well. It's not too long, not too difficult to spell and not unpopular.
In my experience, you have to read what's in the dialog (message, possible answers) to react to it correctly.


(In reply to Marta Rybczyńska from comment #8)
> We have had a lot
> of differences between Gnome and KDE and other translations and it is never
> to the good to the user.

I don't think so. Always looking and copying from one another won't bring any new and innovative things.


As I understand, most of us (if not all) think that "zaniechaj" is worthy replacement for "anuluj" but wouldn't want to make change because it would need to be changed in all software simultaneously. That's not how I see it. I see here https://l10n.kde.org/stats/gui/stable-kf5/team/ that there are two Catalan translations:
1) Catalan
2) Catalan (Valencian)
and there are many other similar cases with other languages.

I think we could make that case with Polish language as well i.e. break it up in two like e.g.:
1) Polish (common)
2) Polish (pure)

The first one would contain "anuluj" for "cancel". The second one would contain "zaniechaj" for "cancel".
The problem is that the first one would be unmaintained and start to get untranslated in many places. In that case, I think it would not be good solution.

@Luigi
Would be that possible?

(In reply to NSLW from comment #9)
> (In reply to grzebo from comment #6)
> (In reply to Marta Rybczyńska from comment #8)
> > We have had a lot
> > of differences between Gnome and KDE and other translations and it is never
> > to the good to the user.
> 
> I don't think so. Always looking and copying from one another won't bring
> any new and innovative things.
> 
> 
> As I understand, most of us (if not all) think that "zaniechaj" is worthy
> replacement for "anuluj" but wouldn't want to make change because it would
> need to be changed in all software simultaneously. That's not how I see it.
> I see here https://l10n.kde.org/stats/gui/stable-kf5/team/ that there are
> two Catalan translations:
> 1) Catalan
> 2) Catalan (Valencian)
> and there are many other similar cases with other languages.
> 
> I think we could make that case with Polish language as well i.e. break it
> up in two like e.g.:
> 1) Polish (common)
> 2) Polish (pure)

Please don't compare apple with oranges. Catalan (Valencian) is a regional variation of a language, not a "purer" variant. It's a totally different situation.

If you want to introduce a global change into software translations, please make sure that at least the other translators of FLOSS software are on the same page. Discuss first, change later, not the other way round.


> The first one would contain "anuluj" for "cancel". The second one would
> contain "zaniechaj" for "cancel".
> The problem is that the first one would be unmaintained and start to get
> untranslated in many places. In that case, I think it would not be good
> solution.
> 
> @Luigi
> Would be that possible?

No.

(In reply to Marta Rybczyńska from comment #8)
> I agree that the translation should go back to Anuluj. Users have been used
> to this one in years. Changing it in one program just confuses them.
> 
> If someone wants to change the typical translation, it should be done in all
> software (at least Open Source) at the same time, I think. We have had a lot
> of differences between Gnome and KDE and other translations and it is never
> to the good to the user.
> 
> +1 to revert

You have my vote!
+1 to revert to 'Anuluj' as 'Cancel' translation.

Any update on this? Apart from Plasma and Frameworks, which have more frequent releases, we are going to have a major release of many applications as part of KDE Applications in few days.

(In reply to NSLW from comment #9)
> "Zaniechaj" is instantly recognizable as well. It's not too long, not too
> difficult to spell and not unpopular.
> In my experience, you have to read what's in the dialog (message, possible
> answers) to react to it correctly.
For users like me, familiar with other OSes and switching between them on a daily basis, "Zaniechaj" (Cancel) looks really similar to "Zastosuj" (Apply) which several times made me click on the button and get unexpected behavior - discarding all my work instead of applying it.

As for now, I've uninstalled kde-i18n-pl because of that.

> For users like me, familiar with other OSes and switching between them on a
> daily basis, "Zaniechaj" (Cancel) looks really similar to "Zastosuj" (Apply)
> which several times made me click on the button and get unexpected behavior
> - discarding all my work instead of applying it.
Unfortunately, I have similar bad experiences with "Zaniechaj".

I believe that the previous name "Anuluj" should be restored as soon as possible.

*** This bug has been confirmed by popular vote. ***

How long does it take to revert this translation back?
It's already 8 months with invalid translation...

That's sad that one person has applied such visible change on his own, just because "it seemed more natural to him". It's not a playground, especially one kid playground.

What needs to be done, to fix it?

I added myself to the PL lang mailing list just to fight for the change back to "Anuluj".

First, there are maybe 1-2 persons working on translation for years. Because of the antiquated system, it's hard start and help with translation. Secondly, because those persons do all the work, they hold also the right to make the decisions and the voice of others carry no weight.

I tried to argument the best I could but to no avail, since I'm, an outsider and have no experience and knowledge, I can't win this. There is no democracy in that area.

There were even someone from the KDE dev team that ordered them to reverse the translation, and they refused it. So he made clear that this wasn't a request and that they have no choice... They refused... because in reality, because of that obsolete system, no one can force anything.

Even if we were on git system, someone would have to read and review pull requests, but maybe there would be someone who would be somehow responsible to other KDE devs and abide the hierarchy.

Anyway, this is super frustrating situation and it hurts KDE development. From one side, those few persons ensure that KDE is properly translated which is great, on other hand, they just don't listen to anyone, because they know they have all the power based on the work they put in. In a way they are also right.

So we landed in a stalemate situation.

This is why it takes so long... The whole language support would have to be moved into git system and integrated with the whole KDE team hierarchy. This requires incredible amount of work, and a risk of losing the very few lang developers we have. On other hand we could have better chance for fresh blood. The current situation isn't sustainable forever anyway.

Please note that a move to git wouldn't help at all. Right now anyone with developer access can commit anywhere anyway.
This is a purely social problem, not a technical one.

Adding more details: even with git and a web interface, the team coordinators for each language would have the final words.

I think we are waiting for a Community Working Group decision. If the decision is going to support the restoration of the previous translation, we would need some Polish volunteer to fix the strings, then there are plenty of people that can commit it. I can't simply change the strings without knowing Polish, or I would break all the declensions.

So again, the git/web tool discussion is important, but not for this specific case.

Yes, this is a social problem but git system would allow more people be involved and that would create a healthier atmosphere.

Currently, active lang devs feel unsupported and alone. They also know how much work they put in it, so they know all ins and outs, plus they have a formal education in language area so no one is better to make the decisions then them so if they make a call, we can discuss all we want.

This is still a social problem and in general unhealthy and dangerous situation.

From one side the experience and knowledge puts them in position to make decision, on other hand, language is a bit more than an academic knowledge, it's also a history of usage and currently the reverse is supporting the widely accepted and used translation "Anuluj" no matter of linguistic correctness.

The main issue here is, since Linux in desktop is still a small niche, we should abide the wide used standards to ease the transition from Windows. There are areas where we cannot or even shouldn't use Windows solutions, but language standards are not one of them. They won't create security wholes. Translation in UI area should follow computer language that is familiar and widely used. Confusion and lack of standard here is not good to anyone.
This is what current PL lang devs aren't getting. They have their own reasons and there is no discussion.

I don't know what is this Community Working Group decision and who is involved there? Is the discussion open? Can we join it? How it all works? Do they really can change the translation if the only persons capable of doing it are the devs that made that unfortunate decision in the first place?

(In reply to Michał Dybczak from comment #20)
> Yes, this is a social problem but git system would allow more people be
> involved and that would create a healthier atmosphere.
> 
> Currently, active lang devs feel unsupported and alone. They also know how
> much work they put in it, so they know all ins and outs, plus they have a
> formal education in language area so no one is better to make the decisions
> then them so if they make a call, we can discuss all we want.

How does git or a web interface (which, again, is something that will happen at some point) solve this?
We can discuss even now.
Even with git or a web interface, only a user with developer account will be able to commit, exactly as it happens now.

> 
> This is still a social problem and in general unhealthy and dangerous
> situation.
> 
> From one side the experience and knowledge puts them in position to make
> decision, on other hand, language is a bit more than an academic knowledge,
> it's also a history of usage and currently the reverse is supporting the
> widely accepted and used translation "Anuluj" no matter of linguistic
> correctness.
> 
> The main issue here is, since Linux in desktop is still a small niche, we
> should abide the wide used standards to ease the transition from Windows.
> There are areas where we cannot or even shouldn't use Windows solutions, but
> language standards are not one of them. They won't create security wholes.
> Translation in UI area should follow computer language that is familiar and
> widely used. Confusion and lack of standard here is not good to anyone.
> This is what current PL lang devs aren't getting. They have their own
> reasons and there is no discussion.

Again, I don't see how the system which stores the translation could affect the current problem. There is one translator, apparently the only one active, who decided to translate something in a certain way. Any other user with development access who know Polish could have reverted those changes.
Why hasn't it happen? Maybe there are none others, or are not active right now. 

If it's the case, and the community (also through the CWG) decides that it's not fine, then new Polish translators would need to step up and start translating.


> I don't know what is this Community Working Group decision and who is
> involved there? Is the discussion open? Can we join it? How it all works? Do
> they really can change the translation if the only persons capable of doing
> it are the devs that made that unfortunate decision in the first place?

https://ev.kde.org/workinggroups/cwg.php

Only a Polish speaker can create a fixed version of those files. If the community decision is that this is incorrect, then other Polish translators would need to take care of the language.

Similarly to this, „lock” was abhorrently re-translated as „tie”: #415209

After almost a year situation is worse as it were before.

For the record on a KDE mailing list I proposed solution to restore original version:

Create a personal pl_WO translation space for L. Wojnilowicz and the group of people backing his approach.

His response in October was positive:

> Yes, eventually I would like to get support in doing that. 
> It's not not ideal solution for me but all parties would be satisfied then.
> And please don't try to alienate me with "pl_WO". I'm sure that I'm not the only one user that would like to see Polish language that way.

The thing would be to assure that both translations are in sync.

Created attachment 124526 [details]
Tłumaczenie plasma-vault.mbox

(In reply to Michał Dybczak from comment #17)
> I added myself to the PL lang mailing list just to fight for the change back
> to "Anuluj".

I'm disappointed that's your motivation. I would like you to come here to work on translation rather than to fight because I think it would be less aggressive and more productive.


> First, there are maybe 1-2 persons working on translation for years.

I think there is a fallacy here.
During my translation period (8 years) maybe two/three users submitted 
files to me in order to commit them into official repository. Those were small but nevertheless valuable contributions.

There is also Jaroslaw Staniek which activated himself after I've fully translated mostly untranslated Kexi. He made some corrections in Kexi according to his knowledge.

There is also Luigi Toscano, who sometimes merges some new translations from Transifex, Launchpad etc.

By you saying that there are 2 peoples working, I feel like treated unfair because I don't see any other translator doing work and I know who lifts the translations.


> Because of the antiquated system, it's hard start and help with translation.

AFAIK you didn't try to contribute, so to me your opinion is not backed by real life experience.
In the beginning I were submitting all my translations to Marta Rybczyńska and it was working OK.
The problem started only as I were submitting more and more.


> Secondly, because those persons do all the work, they hold also the right to
> make the decisions and the voice of others carry no weight.

Would you like to hold the right to make all the decisions but do no work and take no responsibility for it? I disagree with that point of view.
You wrote, that voice of others carry no weight. I presume it's also about your voice not being taken into consideration.
Please recall following post:
https://sourceforge.net/p/kdei18n-pl/mailman/kdei18n-pl-devel/thread/4e833f16-e596-68a3-f6b3-24e04bc95ba7%40gmail.com/#msg36094656
On 2017-11-10 you send e-mail with the same issue directly to me (see attachment to this bug).
It was about me translating the word "vault" as "krypta". You wanted to see "sejf" instead. I've accepted your suggestion without any argument.
Is that not the weight that you had on your mind?

> I tried to argument the best I could but to no avail, since I'm, an outsider
> and have no experience and knowledge, I can't win this. There is no
> democracy in that area.

Do you mean this post?
https://sourceforge.net/p/kdei18n-pl/mailman/message/36775781/
That's the only place I saw you taking voice. I read it, answered it, and saw no arguments valuable to me.
I see that you took side, want fight and win with your side.


> There were even someone from the KDE dev team that ordered them to reverse
> the translation, and they refused it. So he made clear that this wasn't a
> request and that they have no choice... They refused... because in reality,
> because of that obsolete system, no one can force anything.

I don't community like the ones who give orders and the ones who receive orders.
I believe community is a bunch of people who do something voluntarily.
Do you see it differently?


> Even if we were on git system, someone would have to read and review pull
> requests, but maybe there would be someone who would be somehow responsible
> to other KDE devs and abide the hierarchy.

Recently a user wrote to me about untranslated menu in KDE. It wasn't KDE but Qt thing, so I made a submission here
https://codereview.qt-project.org/c/qt/qttranslations/+/284474
Two reviewers has been added. Not translators but Polish speaking employees of Qt.
It's around 60 short translation units which wait for a review since 2019-12-12 (four days now).

The amount of paperwork needed to:
1) create an account there (not a simple task)
2) send a commit
3) get acceptance
is in my opinion unproportionate to the work that needed to be done.
The result is untranslated strings and no vibrant community of translators around Qt.
It's not only in Polish but in Spanish as well and Spanish is well translated language in KDE and has many more native speakers.

I remember times when all translations went through Marta Rybczyńska. It was less harsh than Qt but still not optimal. I made translations during a weekend and she revised it three weeks afterwards. I believe it wasn't convenient for her the same way as it wasn't for me.

I'm not in favour of making more paperwork. It will slow down progress and would eat scarce time resources that could be used for value adding translations.


> Anyway, this is super frustrating situation and it hurts KDE development.
> From one side, those few persons ensure that KDE is properly translated
> which is great, on other hand, they just don't listen to anyone, because
> they know they have all the power based on the work they put in. In a way
> they are also right.

The fact that I don't do as anyone would like doesn't mean that I don't listen to anyone or to you particularly. I would like you to do less emotional statements and more statements which are based on facts because I would like this discussion to be productive. Please try to read and listen as well because there are some basic fact you're still missing like the one that there is single person who translates into Polish here.

In regard to hurting KDE development. Luigi Toscano wrote
"There is one translator, apparently the only one active, who decided to translate something in a certain way."
and I 100% agree with that because he sees that there is only one translator and for "zaniechaj" he didn't termed it with word "absurd" or "abhorrent" - no drama, no justification.


(In reply to Michał Dybczak from comment #20)
> Yes, this is a social problem but git system would allow more people be
> involved and that would create a healthier atmosphere.

That's your opinion. I think everyone would like have something to say and it's rarely that everyone would agree with each other.
That would create more discussions instead of work. Based on how many people contributed to the translations and how many people contributed to the discussion I presume that some people would like to put his 5 cents into discussion rather than work.

> From one side the experience and knowledge puts them [lang dev] in position to make
> decision, on other hand, language is a bit more than an academic knowledge,
> it's also a history of usage and currently the reverse is supporting the
> widely accepted and used translation "Anuluj" no matter of linguistic
> correctness.

I think that in this case, work makes one entitled to make decisions and not "experience and knowledge". Sole experience and knowledge won't make any change/create any substance.
Did you read opinion of linguist Mirosław Bańko? He seems to be supportive of "Zaniechaj".

> The main issue here is, since Linux in desktop is still a small niche, we
> should abide the wide used standards to ease the transition from Windows.
> There are areas where we cannot or even shouldn't use Windows solutions, but
> language standards are not one of them. They won't create security wholes.
> Translation in UI area should follow computer language that is familiar and
> widely used. Confusion and lack of standard here is not good to anyone.
> This is what current PL lang devs aren't getting. They have their own
> reasons and there is no discussion.

I think you would like to abide to the standard of Windows. I would like to abide to the standard of Polish language. I think it's nothing unusual because MacOS didn't abide to Windows standard for a relatively long period of time and we don't know why they've softened.

(In reply to NSLW from comment #24)
> In regard to hurting KDE development. Luigi Toscano wrote
> "There is one translator, apparently the only one active, who decided to
> translate something in a certain way."
> and I 100% agree with that because he sees that there is only one translator
> and for "zaniechaj" he didn't termed it with word "absurd" or "abhorrent" -
> no drama, no justification.

Please note that I simply stated the fact to answer that specific question, but don't take it as an agreement or disagreement on this specific issue.

If you want my personal opinion, after listening to the other people, I find the decision inconsistent with the common expectations, hurting the user experience and that should probably be reverted.

Also, regarding having multiple users: right now you are the gatekeeper, so you don't want more bureaucracy. What would it happen if 3 new Polish translators started to contribute constantly and decided to revert your changes, being the majority? Would you still be against the bureaucracy?

(In reply to Luigi Toscano from comment #25)
> (In reply to NSLW from comment #24)
> > In regard to hurting KDE development. Luigi Toscano wrote
> > "There is one translator, apparently the only one active, who decided to
> > translate something in a certain way."
> > and I 100% agree with that because he sees that there is only one translator
> > and for "zaniechaj" he didn't termed it with word "absurd" or "abhorrent" -
> > no drama, no justification.
> 
> Please note that I simply stated the fact to answer that specific question,
> but don't take it as an agreement or disagreement on this specific issue.

Yes, yesterday you stated many more facts, which I think everybody should agree with.
My intention was just to highlight one of them as a role model.

> If you want my personal opinion, after listening to the other people, I find
> the decision inconsistent with the common expectations, hurting the user
> experience and that should probably be reverted.

OK, I think you are locking many things under "hurting user experience".
For me user experience isn't hurt if the word is understandable.

> Also, regarding having multiple users: right now you are the gatekeeper, so
> you don't want more bureaucracy. What would it happen if 3 new Polish
> translators started to contribute constantly and decided to revert your
> changes, being the majority? Would you still be against the bureaucracy?

In case of more than one translator I would organize ourselves. I would suggest everyone to take an area for himself and maintain it.
In that way you give freedom, responsibility and put trust in people.

> For me user experience isn't hurt if the word is understandable.
User Experience isn't based on personal preference, it's a whole area of scientfiic expertise, grounded in gestalt laws of perception. 

> I'm disappointed that's your motivation. I would like you to come here to
> work on translation rather than to fight because I think it would be less
> aggressive and more productive.
I'm disappointed that even while seeing that your change disrupts someone's work so much that it makes them create an account here and file a bug (which isn't something a regular user wants to do) you still don't consider that enough of a feedback to actually revert - or even consider reverting - the change. The way you approach actual feedback given to you isn't community- nor improvement-oriented.

> Would you like to hold the right to make all the decisions but do no work
> and take no responsibility for it? I disagree with that point of view.
Nobody says you have to agree with that. If you volunteer to make work for the community, you should at least try to respect community's needs and decisions.

> I believe community is a bunch of people who do something voluntarily.
> Do you see it differently?
Well, I do. I believe that community is a group of people who wants to have something in common - in this particular instance, using KDE. There's no need to volunteer (that's what volunteering means, you do it if you want to). 

You are basically trying to make people go away from KDE - and from the community - based on your own preferences (which nobody in this thread agreed with so far).

> The fact that I don't do as anyone would like doesn't mean that I don't
> listen to anyone or to you particularly. 
So you're basically telling us that you've acknowledged our needs and decided that you know better what they are.

> I would like you to do less emotional statements and more statements which
> are based on facts because I would like this discussion to be productive.



Here are the facts, then:
You are not listening to feedback, which is one of the most important User Experience rules.

> I think you would like to abide to the standard of Windows. I would like to
> abide to the standard of Polish language. 
You ignore the gestalt law of similarity which is the backbone of proper design. 


You prefer disturbing people's work for the idea of pure language, forgetting completely that language is constantly changing.
Since you often use the prof. Bańko example, let me use another quote of him:
https://sjp.pwn.pl/poradnia/haslo/anulacja;13028.html

(In reply to NSLW from comment #24)
> Created attachment 124526 [details]
> Tłumaczenie plasma-vault.mbox
> 
> 
> I'm disappointed that's your motivation. I would like you to come here to
> work on translation rather than to fight because I think it would be less
> aggressive and more productive.

Why? One of the most common motivators for people is when we see something we don't like, instead being passive and whiny, we take action to improve things. Nothing shameful in that, in fact, this should be admirable, because most people will only complain and won't even try to do anything. The need to improve even one thing is how things start and it may evolve in something more but it has to start somewhere.

> > First, there are maybe 1-2 persons working on translation for years.
> 
> I think there is a fallacy here.
> During my translation period (8 years) maybe two/three users submitted 
> files to me in order to commit them into official repository. Those were
> small but nevertheless valuable contributions.
> 
> There is also Jaroslaw Staniek which activated himself after I've fully
> translated mostly untranslated Kexi. He made some corrections in Kexi
> according to his knowledge.
> 
> There is also Luigi Toscano, who sometimes merges some new translations from
> Transifex, Launchpad etc.
> 
> By you saying that there are 2 peoples working, I feel like treated unfair
> because I don't see any other translator doing work and I know who lifts the
> translations.

Thank you for clarifying it. I was just being general because I don't have all the facts and that is why I used the word MAYBE. I'm also an outside person without means to know all such details but from what I can remember, very few people were currently working on translators and very few were major contributors - that is what I got from the discussion. Again, note I wasn't giving any absolute statements showing that I accept I might be off with this info.
You are just nitpicking on the details hich is a bad attitude that is super common among polish internet communities (of any kind). I guess this is some flaw in our culture. It's very hard to discuss something seriously when someone is constantly nitpicking and splitting hairs in two and it's a form of an attack, which is not a way to discuss things constructively.

> 
> > Because of the antiquated system, it's hard start and help with translation.
> 
> AFAIK you didn't try to contribute, so to me your opinion is not backed by
> real life experience.
> In the beginning I were submitting all my translations to Marta Rybczyńska
> and it was working OK.
> The problem started only as I were submitting more and more.

You seemed to miss the point. The system is so antiquated that it's not comprehensible by modern standards and that simply creates a huge barrier which I bounced off of it. I wanted to contribute because it feels fair to try when I already voiced my opinion. I didn't even have chance to do that because there was no one to help me with that, although I clearly asked for it. Yes, this is so confusing that if you want fresh blood, you must guide them like children. I expected some site, account with certain rights and access to the files that I can work on plus some modern way of communication on the project.
So I had a genuine desire to help or at least try to, yet I'm bashed that my motivation is disappointing and that I didn't contribute anything. This is absurd and a vicious, and unfair circle.


> 
> 
> > Secondly, because those persons do all the work, they hold also the right to
> > make the decisions and the voice of others carry no weight.
> 
> Would you like to hold the right to make all the decisions but do no work
> and take no responsibility for it? I disagree with that point of view.
> You wrote, that voice of others carry no weight. I presume it's also about
> your voice not being taken into consideration.
> Please recall following post:
> https://sourceforge.net/p/kdei18n-pl/mailman/kdei18n-pl-devel/thread/
> 4e833f16-e596-68a3-f6b3-24e04bc95ba7%40gmail.com/#msg36094656
> On 2017-11-10 you send e-mail with the same issue directly to me (see
> attachment to this bug).
> It was about me translating the word "vault" as "krypta". You wanted to see
> "sejf" instead. I've accepted your suggestion without any argument.
> Is that not the weight that you had on your mind?

Well, I agree that I stated it too strongly. However, from my perspective it looked like this:

- I submitted the bug about the translation of "the vault" and had zero response
- after a while I did see the corrected translation, I was happy, but I had no way of knowing if me taking action was the trigger or maybe the translator (you) realized the mistake on your own, or maybe someone submitted that problem on other, more proper channels
- so in the end I didn't feel like my voice was heard, even if translation was indeed fixed

When I raised my voice about the Anuluj vs. Zaniechaj, I felt ignored again.

This is probably a fault of the antiquated system. We don't know how to communicate with each other (developers with users) so it creates unpleasant situation on both sides: you feel as if your work was not apprciated, we feel that our feedback is not appreciated or even heard either.

I'm happy to hear that my submission helped thou. Thank you for letting me know.

> 
> > I tried to argument the best I could but to no avail, since I'm, an outsider
> > and have no experience and knowledge, I can't win this. There is no
> > democracy in that area.
> 
> Do you mean this post?
> https://sourceforge.net/p/kdei18n-pl/mailman/message/36775781/
> That's the only place I saw you taking voice. I read it, answered it, and
> saw no arguments valuable to me.
> I see that you took side, want fight and win with your side.

I absolutely don't understand you now. If I was agreeing with you, there would be no discussion or any reason to communicate in that case. Why fighting for the argument is a bad thing? You do it, so why can't I? Fighting for something doesn't mean that we can't estabilish any consensus or understanding.
However, in our previous discussion you twisted my words and found some meaning that wasn't there. Where I tried to show you how we feel about it and why it is important to us I was too emotional. When I was trying to admit how good job you done and that you maybe have no enough contributors, you commenedt I was ungrateful and aggitative...

Can you imagine how frustrating it is when you compliment someone, try to reach a hand and the other person just bashes you? This is why I didn't feel like there is point of talking further back then and that is why it stuck there. You looked for the bad intentions where there were none. This was super unwelcoming so I dropped off. Or maybe write some replay and got no answer? Somehow I don't see anything more on the link you posted. I don't clearly remeber, it was too long ago, but it felt like bashing agaist a wall (we didn't get along, you misunderstood me, ignored my arguments and I still didn't know where to start with the translation) so I lost interest.


> 
> 
> > There were even someone from the KDE dev team that ordered them to reverse
> > the translation, and they refused it. So he made clear that this wasn't a
> > request and that they have no choice... They refused... because in reality,
> > because of that obsolete system, no one can force anything.
> 
> I don't community like the ones who give orders and the ones who receive
> orders.
> I believe community is a bunch of people who do something voluntarily.
> Do you see it differently?


First, with so huge project there has to be a hierachy, otherwise there is simply chaos. No bigger thing can arise from that.
Secondly, if you voulenteer, you are doing things not for yourself, otherwise why publishing your work? So everything you do is affecting users. I know that users aren't automatically right, it's not that simple but forcing some changes for you only against community and then being angry that community is even complaining is not right.
Third, a community member has a right to give a feedback, because this is often the only way we can help. If we feel misunderstood or ignored, then yeah, things may become too emotional, but there is a reason why this is that way. If we could discuss on the same level with you it may have been different but we can't, we don't have the knowldge and experience but we can try to show you how important it is for us.


> > Yes, this is a social problem but git system would allow more people be
> > involved and that would create a healthier atmosphere.
> 
> That's your opinion. I think everyone would like have something to say and
> it's rarely that everyone would agree with each other.
> That would create more discussions instead of work. Based on how many people
> contributed to the translations and how many people contributed to the
> discussion I presume that some people would like to put his 5 cents into
> discussion rather than work.

There are thinhgs that indeed should be decided without discussion, but some things need to be discussed. Both extremes are bad where either we talk but not work or work but no communication appears, then work deralis from its course. You are helping us so our feedback should be of value. The case of Anuluj vs. Zaniechaj is such a case where community shouldn't be disregarded and the decision shouldn't be just yours.


> 
> > Even if we were on git system, someone would have to read and review pull
> > requests, but maybe there would be someone who would be somehow responsible
> > to other KDE devs and abide the hierarchy.
> 
> Recently a user wrote to me about untranslated menu in KDE. It wasn't KDE
> but Qt thing, so I made a submission here
> https://codereview.qt-project.org/c/qt/qttranslations/+/284474
> Two reviewers has been added. Not translators but Polish speaking employees
> of Qt.
> It's around 60 short translation units which wait for a review since
> 2019-12-12 (four days now).
> 
> The amount of paperwork needed to:
> 1) create an account there (not a simple task)
> 2) send a commit
> 3) get acceptance
> is in my opinion unproportionate to the work that needed to be done.
> The result is untranslated strings and no vibrant community of translators
> around Qt.
> It's not only in Polish but in Spanish as well and Spanish is well
> translated language in KDE and has many more native speakers.
> 
> I remember times when all translations went through Marta Rybczyńska. It was
> less harsh than Qt but still not optimal. I made translations during a
> weekend and she revised it three weeks afterwards. I believe it wasn't
> convenient for her the same way as it wasn't for me.
> 
> I'm not in favour of making more paperwork. It will slow down progress and
> would eat scarce time resources that could be used for value adding
> translations.

Thank you for your insights, this is interesting to know but I'm not sure what are you trying to tell here. Are you comparing git system to overblown burocracy?
Git could be relatively simple, like Github. Despite it being purchased by MS, it's still the most friendly git platform IMO.
If git system is made right, it's easier to start. Maybe the current system is simpler somehow but I still don't know where the files are hosted, how you work on the translations, so it's all like behind the wall completely inaccessible for newcommers.

This is getting off topic and I admit, I don't know enough so I can't tell for sure that git system would make it all better. Maybe it really wouldn't but again, this is not the focus of this case so let's drop it.

> 
> 
> > Anyway, this is super frustrating situation and it hurts KDE development.
> > From one side, those few persons ensure that KDE is properly translated
> > which is great, on other hand, they just don't listen to anyone, because
> > they know they have all the power based on the work they put in. In a way
> > they are also right.
> 
> The fact that I don't do as anyone would like doesn't mean that I don't
> listen to anyone or to you particularly. I would like you to do less
> emotional statements and more statements which are based on facts because I
> would like this discussion to be productive. Please try to read and listen
> as well because there are some basic fact you're still missing like the one
> that there is single person who translates into Polish here.

I don't thing you are listening to me either. So maybe I'll stop here with the discussion and go to the point of this bug submission:

1. You wrote somehwere that "zaniechaj" is perfectly understandable and that is good enough for you (I can't find the quote right now, the discussion got a bit too complex to follow).

This was not the case for me. When I first saw "Zaniechaj" I was starring at it and was confused. What is it? What does it do? I didn't understand it. The years of seeing Cancel=Anuluj (almost 24 years!!!) engraved so strongly that seeing "Zaniechaj" in in this context was completely unclear. I was starring a good few minutes on the window, seeing 3 buttons and trying to decide which is the new Anuluj... Of course I figured it out eventually and it wasn't that hard but the first experience was super confusing and it took me some time to learn to click "zaniechaj" with certainty. For a long time I was stopping to try to asses where is this Anuluj button now?

So no, this wasn't clear at all. It is now but I still don't like it from various of reasons.


2. You wrote:

""Zaniechaj" appeals to Polish language speaker. It's not a new technical term, 
it's also not an archaic word. In that sense it dejargonizes the language."

Windows by being so long on the market and by being diminant system created a standard and I'm sure I'm not the only one accepting that standard. The confusion I wrote in previous point stem from the context and the years of consistant usage - this is how the new language standards are created. "Zaniechaj" is OK word anywhere else but for Cancel button on a desktop system? No, I've never seen that before so this word wasn't clear at all when I saw it used like that for the first time.

3. You wrote elswhere:

"Preserving use of Polish language is extremely important reason for me."

The problem here is, you are completely disregarding history and the context of that translation and usage of the world Anuluj. The language is a living thing and over the years it became a new standard and you are trying to force a translation outside of the context. There is no back in time at this point.

It's as if you translated a books for surgons by dejargonizing the language. This would be an usuable crap. The same thing happened with Tolkien translation when someone tried forcefully use polish words for names and words everywhere possible. I bet you know the story and how people hated it.

There is a very good reason to claim that Cancel is Anuluj in the desktop UI world. Preserving Polish language is a noble goal but with that one is already too late. The standard is already created. That is why we are discussing here.

4. "Zaniechaj" is too similar to "Zastosuj".

UI design is not always consistent so the buttons look different, there is sometimes Cancel/OK pair and sometimes Cancel/Apply/OK, the buttons may have differnt position, look (Gtk, Qt, libre UI, etc.).

We relay on automatisation and habits. Having clearly differnt words Anuluj/Zastosuj is a good practice whole Zaniechaj/Zastosuj is just a bad lingusitical design so to speak.

5. 
> I think you would like to abide to the standard of Windows. I would like to
> abide to the standard of Polish language. I think it's nothing unusual
> because MacOS didn't abide to Windows standard for a relatively long period
> of time and we don't know why they've softened.

But Windows did create standars for Polish language! Desktop PC systems weren't a thing before. Windows played a vital role and it created a new Polish standards for this specialization. MacOS didn't play and still doesn't play any bigger role in Poland. This may be changing when the society is becoming wealthier but this is a secondary phenomenon. Windows created a standard and change our language already.

6. The new translation of a term should be caused by a need and I don't think that community asked for it. The need to preserve the polish language is unfortunatelly not something that community would share. Usability is more important here and becaus of the standard plus the distinctivness, Anuluj is far better, if not the only correct translation here.

7. There are many things that are left for your decision where you can fulfill preserving Polish language goal. However, Cancel button is too important and there should be no freedom of translating it, not today. It's a very strict and clear part of the UI that is super important, so it's important to avoid any confusion and use widely accepeted standards.


I hope this wasn't emotional for you this time and worthy of discussion.


I'm trying to help you put yourself into our shoes. We are confused and unhappy with that translation. We are unhappy to a point to start a long and sometimes unpleasant discussion. Months have passed and we are still not forgetting and we are still not accepting the change. This should tell you something.
Your work is important to us and that is why we are talking. Your voluntary service has a meaning because of us - users. It's already unpleasant for us to fight for rights to be heard. You have the power to change the code/translation but we are users of that code/translation so our opinion should have weight in that case, even if we didn't contribute to the translations over the past. In a way, we are trying to contribute to it right now the only way we can.

Thank you

Sorry if my previous post may not be completely readable for English speakers.
It's hard to discuss such complex stuff without falling into our native language constructions. I also noticed, I forgot some punctuation and that may change the meaning. It sounds good in the head, but written in foreign language may be confusing.

So for example, when I wrote:
> Where I tried to show you how we feel about it and why it is important to us I was too emotional.

I meant:

Where I tried to show you how we feel about it and why it is important to us, you thought I was too emotional.

I stumbled over here after seeing angry comments from people on Nate's blog and feel I have a couple things to say.

One, as a native Polish speaker (and sorta a purist like our translator here) who only actually tried using KDE in Polish after the change to "Zaniechaj" (my day-to-day machine is set to English), my reaction to seeing this for the first time was: "Oh, how cute. I like it." On the other hand, I don't think idiosyncrasies like this one are exactly good, for example when someone unfamiliar with KDE tries supporting a user over the phone… Has anyone considered this? In software translation, you don't want "cute" or "where's the 'Anuluj' button" to be the first reaction.

Two, Apple had not commissioned a Polish translation of Mac OS before Leopard. However, "Polonizator" fan translations did exist. Hence, it wasn't that Apple 'softened', it was that fan translators were purists, too. At least *they* could argue that there was no existing translation and no prevailing standard (unless you count Windows 95, which was still fairly new at the time these translations started - the oldest one I could find was for Mac OS 9), either. In this case, we have both a long history of KDE using "Anuluj" *and* others using *Anuluj* virtually all around us, including notable applications people run on KDE, like Firefox.

Three, while I can get behind encouraging use of "purer language", I cannot applaud the decision to change a common UI element without soliciting opinions beforehand.

(In reply to przem.formela from comment #27)
> > For me user experience isn't hurt if the word is understandable.
> User Experience isn't based on personal preference, it's a whole area of
> scientfiic expertise, grounded in gestalt laws of perception. 

According to https://www.usertesting.com/blog/gestalt-principles/
"The human brain is wired to see structure, logic, and patterns. It helps us make sense of the world. In the 1920s a group of German psychologists developed theories around how people perceive the world around them, called Gestalt principles."
I think we might be over-stretching scope of gestalt principles which are about structure, logic, and patterns. I'm not sure if Luigi meant that specifically or in general, so I think we might slightly went off-topic here. Nevertheless thank you for your explanation. 


> I'm disappointed that even while seeing that your change disrupts someone's
> work so much that it makes them create an account here and file a bug (which
> isn't something a regular user wants to do) you still don't consider that
> enough of a feedback to actually revert - or even consider reverting - the
> change. 

The change disrupts your work because you don't know what "zaniechaj" does and you know what "anuluj" does?


> The way you approach actual feedback given to you isn't community-
> nor improvement-oriented.

I presume that you don't see this change as making anything valuable to you.
In our devel list I wrote:
"My motivation is to promote the use of Polish language and enhance its quality 
in software."
Don't you see it as improvement of Polish wording in software?


> > Would you like to hold the right to make all the decisions but do no work
> > and take no responsibility for it? I disagree with that point of view.
> Nobody says you have to agree with that. If you volunteer to make work for
> the community, you should at least try to respect community's needs and
> decisions.

It seems to me that you're frustrated and would require obedience from me.
By you saying "[you] work for the community" I feel disrespected because it places
me (worker) below you (community). I believe, that I deliver work that benefits Polish language and the community.


> > I believe community is a bunch of people who do something voluntarily.
> > Do you see it differently?
> Well, I do. I believe that community is a group of people who wants to have
> something in common - in this particular instance, using KDE. There's no
> need to volunteer (that's what volunteering means, you do it if you want
> to). 

I guess you're right. It depends on how you look at it. I wrote it in the context of
group of people (translators, devs, designers) being directly responsible for shaping KDE look and feel.


> You are basically trying to make people go away from KDE - and from the
> community - based on your own preferences (which nobody in this thread
> agreed with so far).

Please don't try to make false accusations. I do not try to make people go away from KDE.

I do not agree with statement that being in majority is the proof of being right.
I would like you to read quotes from known people, so maybe we could get on common ground.
"Don't confuse the truth with the opinion of the majority" Jean Cocteau
"Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to reform (or pause and reflect)." Mark Twain


> > The fact that I don't do as anyone would like doesn't mean that I don't
> > listen to anyone or to you particularly. 
> So you're basically telling us that you've acknowledged our needs and
> decided that you know better what they are.

Please don't try to ridicule me by saying "you know better".
I believe we all have the same need i.e. the translations to be understandable.


> > I would like you to do less emotional statements and more statements which
> > are based on facts because I would like this discussion to be productive.
> Here are the facts, then:
> You are not listening to feedback, which is one of the most important User
> Experience rules.

I'm curious if your reason for saying "you are not listening" is different from Michał Dybczak.
Would you mind to tell me when do you think I would listen?


> > I think you would like to abide to the standard of Windows. I would like to
> > abide to the standard of Polish language. 
> You ignore the gestalt law of similarity which is the backbone of proper
> design. 

I'm not sure. According to https://www.usertesting.com/blog/gestalt-principles/
"The principle of similarity states that when things appear to be similar to each other, we group them together. And we also tend to think they have the same function."


> You prefer disturbing people's work for the idea of pure language,
> forgetting completely that language is constantly changing.

I've got impression that language is changing because of globalization.
There is less Polish in Polish. In my opinion, if there is a Polish word that did not fall out of use
then we should use it instead of English word where appropriate.


> Since you often use the prof. Bańko example, let me use another quote of him:
> https://sjp.pwn.pl/poradnia/haslo/anulacja;13028.html

Thank you, but what did you want to show with that example?

(In reply to Michał Dybczak from comment #28)
> Why? One of the most common motivators for people is when we see something
> we don't like, instead being passive and whiny, we take action to improve
> things. Nothing shameful in that, in fact, this should be admirable, because
> most people will only complain and won't even try to do anything. The need
> to improve even one thing is how things start and it may evolve in something
> more but it has to start somewhere.

You wrote "fight". I think that word sets negative scene and attitude for discussion.
I think there is nothing easier than to stand in majority and throw stones at minority here. I don't find it admirable.


> Thank you for clarifying it. I was just being general because I don't have
> all the facts and that is why I used the word MAYBE. I'm also an outside
> person without means to know all such details but from what I can remember,
> very few people were currently working on translators and very few were
> major contributors - that is what I got from the discussion. Again, note I
> wasn't giving any absolute statements showing that I accept I might be off
> with this info.

OK. One doesn't need to be inside person to know all this. The information is public and all
one needs to do is to analyze it.

I'm concerned that facts are based on what other people say, because I would like facts to be independent of how people processed them.


> You are just nitpicking on the details hich is a bad attitude that is super
> common among polish internet communities (of any kind). I guess this is some
> flaw in our culture. It's very hard to discuss something seriously when
> someone is constantly nitpicking and splitting hairs in two and it's a form
> of an attack, which is not a way to discuss things constructively.

By me bringing details is nitpicking for you because contribution in Polish translation is not what you wanted to discuss?


> You seemed to miss the point. The system is so antiquated that it's not
> comprehensible by modern standards and that simply creates a huge barrier
> which I bounced off of it. I wanted to contribute because it feels fair to
> try when I already voiced my opinion. I didn't even have chance to do that
> because there was no one to help me with that, although I clearly asked for
> it. Yes, this is so confusing that if you want fresh blood, you must guide
> them like children. I expected some site, account with certain rights and
> access to the files that I can work on plus some modern way of communication
> on the project.
> So I had a genuine desire to help or at least try to, yet I'm bashed that my
> motivation is disappointing and that I didn't contribute anything. This is
> absurd and a vicious, and unfair circle.

Sorry, I based my observation on the fact that on kdei18n-pl-devel and kdei18n-pl-uwagi under your name I only found your request for changing
translation of "krypta" and "zaniechaj" and in my inbox did not found any e-mail from you asking me to join translations.

How did you try to get involved in translation then?


> Well, I agree that I stated it too strongly. However, from my perspective it
> looked like this:
> 
> - I submitted the bug about the translation of "the vault" and had zero
> response
> - after a while I did see the corrected translation, I was happy, but I had
> no way of knowing if me taking action was the trigger or maybe the
> translator (you) realized the mistake on your own, or maybe someone
> submitted that problem on other, more proper channels
> - so in the end I didn't feel like my voice was heard, even if translation
> was indeed fixed

The information on discussion list might have been lost initially. That happens.
You wrote to me directly and received response, that it will be corrected either in some definite time
or as soon as you submit correction earlier to me. Have you read attached e-mail? 


> When I raised my voice about the Anuluj vs. Zaniechaj, I felt ignored again.
> 
> This is probably a fault of the antiquated system. We don't know how to
> communicate with each other (developers with users) so it creates unpleasant
> situation on both sides: you feel as if your work was not apprciated, we
> feel that our feedback is not appreciated or even heard either.

What would you suggest to improve situation?


> I'm happy to hear that my submission helped thou. Thank you for letting me
> know.

You're welcome.


> I absolutely don't understand you now. If I was agreeing with you, there
> would be no discussion or any reason to communicate in that case. Why
> fighting for the argument is a bad thing? You do it, so why can't I?
> Fighting for something doesn't mean that we can't establish any consensus
> or understanding.

After a fight you might reach consensus and understanding as you wrote. I see fight 
as not required to reach consensus and understanding.

> When I was trying to
> admit how good job you done and that you maybe have no enough contributors,
> you commenedt I was ungrateful and aggitative...

You gave me unsolicited praise and I've feel obliged to give praise in return.
I think the discussion should not be about praising each other.

I feel unjust because I didn't call you "ungrateful and aggitative". I would like you to be
reading my sentences and not replacing words in them.


> Can you imagine how frustrating it is when you compliment someone, try to
> reach a hand and the other person just bashes you?

Do you feel frustrated because through showing your appreciation you wanted to achieve trust and cooperation?


> First, with so huge project there has to be a hierachy, otherwise there is
> simply chaos. No bigger thing can arise from that.

OK, you see it differently. As you've seen from the answer I gave Luigi Toscano,
https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=404286#c26
I'm not hierarchical person.


> Secondly, if you voulenteer, you are doing things not for yourself,
> otherwise why publishing your work? So everything you do is affecting users.

Please see my answer I gave Przemysław Formela
https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=404286#c31
so that I mustn't duplicate content.


> Third, a community member has a right to give a feedback, because this is
> often the only way we can help. If we feel misunderstood or ignored, then
> yeah, things may become too emotional, but there is a reason why this is
> that way. If we could discuss on the same level with you it may have been
> different but we can't, we don't have the knowldge and experience but we can
> try to show you how important it is for us.

I read so much off-topic text around it that I feel confused because I would like to focus 
on what difficulties do people have with using "zaniechaj".

> There are thinhgs that indeed should be decided without discussion, but some
> things need to be discussed. Both extremes are bad where either we talk but
> not work or work but no communication appears, then work deralis from its
> course. You are helping us so our feedback should be of value. The case of
> Anuluj vs. Zaniechaj is such a case where community shouldn't be disregarded
> and the decision shouldn't be just yours.

I've got impression that we are making loops here. I believe I've answered you that earlier.


> Thank you for your insights, this is interesting to know but I'm not sure
> what are you trying to tell here. Are you comparing git system to overblown
> burocracy?

Gerrit (the system used there) is git system integrated with code review service.
From my experience, processing my simple 60 translation units by reviewers goes slow there. Now it's
a week without any response. KDE is around 220 000 translation units and managing it 
by system like that, would cause massive slow down.

> I don't thing you are listening to me either. So maybe I'll stop here with
> the discussion and go to the point of this bug submission:
> 
> 1. You wrote somehwere that "zaniechaj" is perfectly understandable and that
> is good enough for you (I can't find the quote right now, the discussion got
> a bit too complex to follow).
> 
> This was not the case for me. When I first saw "Zaniechaj" I was starring at
> it and was confused. What is it? What does it do? I didn't understand it.
> The years of seeing Cancel=Anuluj (almost 24 years!!!) engraved so strongly
> that seeing "Zaniechaj" in in this context was completely unclear. I was
> starring a good few minutes on the window, seeing 3 buttons and trying to
> decide which is the new Anuluj... Of course I figured it out eventually and
> it wasn't that hard but the first experience was super confusing and it took
> me some time to learn to click "zaniechaj" with certainty. For a long time I
> was stopping to try to asses where is this Anuluj button now?
> 
> So no, this wasn't clear at all. It is now but I still don't like it from
> various of reasons.

So you saw "zaniechaj" - new thing on your system - one day. Did you feel confused because you would like your system to be stable as to not change too much?


> 2. You wrote:
> 
> ""Zaniechaj" appeals to Polish language speaker. It's not a new technical
> term, 
> it's also not an archaic word. In that sense it dejargonizes the language."
> 
> Windows by being so long on the market and by being diminant system created
> a standard and I'm sure I'm not the only one accepting that standard. The
> confusion I wrote in previous point stem from the context and the years of
> consistant usage - this is how the new language standards are created.

I guess you're born in Windows (and not MacOS) standard. Do you feel used to it and would like to belong to it because it's prevailing?

> "Zaniechaj" is OK word anywhere else but for Cancel button on a desktop
> system? No, I've never seen that before so this word wasn't clear at all
> when I saw it used like that for the first time.

It seems that "anuluj" has special place for you. Do you see "anuluj" as jargon word then?

> 3. You wrote elswhere:
> 
> "Preserving use of Polish language is extremely important reason for me."
> 
> The problem here is, you are completely disregarding history and the context
> of that translation and usage of the world Anuluj. The language is a living
> thing and over the years it became a new standard and you are trying to
> force a translation outside of the context. There is no back in time at this
> point.

Please read what was already mentioned. 
According to linguist Mirosław Bańko "zaniechaj" fits in software context and
could replace word "anuluj".


> It's as if you translated a books for surgons by dejargonizing the language.
> This would be an usuable crap. The same thing happened with Tolkien
> translation when someone tried forcefully use polish words for names and
> words everywhere possible. I bet you know the story and how people hated it.

"Hansel and Gretel" has been translated into Polish with title included and I suspect
few know the original title of this fable. The same with "Winnie Pooh". Please try to concentrate 
on success stories.


> There is a very good reason to claim that Cancel is Anuluj in the desktop UI
> world. Preserving Polish language is a noble goal but with that one is
> already too late. The standard is already created. That is why we are
> discussing here.

I think it's never too late, too early, too risky, too high, too steep, too hard, etc.
to pursuit noble goals.


> 4. "Zaniechaj" is too similar to "Zastosuj".
> 
> UI design is not always consistent so the buttons look different, there is
> sometimes Cancel/OK pair and sometimes Cancel/Apply/OK, the buttons may have
> differnt position, look (Gtk, Qt, libre UI, etc.).
> 
> We relay on automatisation and habits. Having clearly differnt words
> Anuluj/Zastosuj is a good practice whole Zaniechaj/Zastosuj is just a bad
> lingusitical design so to speak.

I agree that "Anuluj" is more different from "Zastosuj" than "Zaniechaj" but nevertheless 
I think they seem readily distinguishable when put together. I'm not an expert on human eye,
but I believe it's trained to distinguish words very well.


> 5. 
> > I think you would like to abide to the standard of Windows. I would like to
> > abide to the standard of Polish language. I think it's nothing unusual
> > because MacOS didn't abide to Windows standard for a relatively long period
> > of time and we don't know why they've softened.
> 
> But Windows did create standars for Polish language! Desktop PC systems
> weren't a thing before. Windows played a vital role and it created a new
> Polish standards for this specialization. MacOS didn't play and still
> doesn't play any bigger role in Poland. This may be changing when the
> society is becoming wealthier but this is a secondary phenomenon. Windows
> created a standard and change our language already.

I see, that you're justifying righteousness by strength of Windows, MacOS or 
wealthy people. Please read my opinion I gave Jarosław Staniek
https://sourceforge.net/p/kdei18n-pl/mailman/message/36780815/
so that I musn't duplicate content

> 6. The new translation of a term should be caused by a need and I don't
> think that community asked for it. The need to preserve the polish language
> is unfortunatelly not something that community would share. Usability is
> more important here and becaus of the standard plus the distinctivness,
> Anuluj is far better, if not the only correct translation here.

If one is adapted to something then his need for everything is to stay as it was, so that 
he mustn't adapt again. It's then important for one how to get by and not how to be correct.
That way you would have no improvement.


> 7. There are many things that are left for your decision where you can
> fulfill preserving Polish language goal. However, Cancel button is too
> important and there should be no freedom of translating it, not today. It's
> a very strict and clear part of the UI that is super important, so it's
> important to avoid any confusion and use widely accepeted standards.

After reading that paragraph I feel confused because I cannot get any clarity from it.
I would like to mirror it at you. Translating "cancel" is important to me to get
this part software wording correct and I would like to do it today.

> 
> I'm trying to help you put yourself into our shoes. We are confused and
> unhappy with that translation. We are unhappy to a point to start a long and
> sometimes unpleasant discussion. Months have passed and we are still not
> forgetting and we are still not accepting the change. This should tell you
> something.

That paragraph tells me that I should feel guilty which disturbs my peace. I would like you to 
stop describing to me situations as you see it through your own eyes because it adds unneeded drama.

> Your work is important to us and that is why we are talking. Your voluntary
> service has a meaning because of us - users. It's already unpleasant for us
> to fight for rights to be heard. You have the power to change the
> code/translation but we are users of that code/translation so our opinion
> should have weight in that case, even if we didn't contribute to the
> translations over the past. In a way, we are trying to contribute to it
> right now the only way we can.

After you giving me the "power to change code/translation" I feel unease.
KDE isn't my organization, translation could be changed by anyone and my only power
is that I'm able maintain KDE Polish translations.

(In reply to r.rozne from comment #30)
> I stumbled over here after seeing angry comments from people on Nate's blog
> and feel I have a couple things to say.
> 
> One, as a native Polish speaker (and sorta a purist like our translator
> here) who only actually tried using KDE in Polish after the change to
> "Zaniechaj" (my day-to-day machine is set to English), my reaction to seeing
> this for the first time was: "Oh, how cute. I like it."

You used Polish translation in KDE before the change to "Zaniechaj" and after the change 
you tried (struggled) to use it?


> On the other hand, I
> don't think idiosyncrasies like this one are exactly good, for example when
> someone unfamiliar with KDE tries supporting a user over the phone… Has
> anyone considered this? In software translation, you don't want "cute" or
> "where's the 'Anuluj' button" to be the first reaction.

I want to get you right: an expert unfamiliar with KDE tries to help a novice
also unfamiliar with KDE on how to achieve something in KDE. He does so by phone conversation.
The key here should be presence of "Anuluj" button otherwise there would be searching for it.

Here is how I consider the situation, I understood:
First, I think that "Zaniechaj" equals "Anuluj" so that's not like the meaning has changed. In English 
you could also say "Dove" and "Pigeon" and AFAIK that would mean exactly the same. No confusion here.

Second, I think that the expert has much bigger challenges in helping than to find "Anuluj" button, because he is in general unfamiliar with KDE .

Third, If the expert asks "where's 'Anuluj' button" then he could also ask "where's 'Start' button" which is equally important. Should we then instantiate Start button in KDE as well? I think not.


> Two, Apple had not commissioned a Polish translation of Mac OS before
> Leopard. However, "Polonizator" fan translations did exist. Hence, it wasn't
> that Apple 'softened', it was that fan translators were purists, too. At
> least *they* could argue that there was no existing translation and no
> prevailing standard (unless you count Windows 95, which was still fairly new
> at the time these translations started - the oldest one I could find was for
> Mac OS 9), either. 

MacOS was translated since 1986.
Please read and interview with translators
https://www.computerworld.pl/wywiad/Kwasne-jablka-do-szarlotki,320100.html
Their opinion on Window translation is that it was: ugly, illogic, inconsistent.
That might be the same time at which someone made decision to be incompatible with 
MacOS and choose "Anuluj" instead of "Poniechaj".

> In this case, we have both a long history of KDE using
> "Anuluj" *and* others using *Anuluj* virtually all around us, including
> notable applications people run on KDE, like Firefox.

I see that Firefox and Chrome use native KDE dialogs with "Zaniechaj" in them.
I also see that you're refering to the majority, similary to Przemysław Formela.
Please read answer I gave to him, so that I mustn't duplicate content
https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=404286#c31

> Three, while I can get behind encouraging use of "purer language", I cannot
> applaud the decision to change a common UI element without soliciting
> opinions beforehand.

I get impression that you're not proud of how things changed.
Would you solicit opinions beforehand, so that everyone would agree on the change?

(In reply to NSLW from comment #33)
> (In reply to r.rozne from comment #30)
> > I stumbled over here after seeing angry comments from people on Nate's blog
> > and feel I have a couple things to say.
> > 
> > One, as a native Polish speaker (and sorta a purist like our translator
> > here) who only actually tried using KDE in Polish after the change to
> > "Zaniechaj" (my day-to-day machine is set to English), my reaction to seeing
> > this for the first time was: "Oh, how cute. I like it."
> 
> You used Polish translation in KDE before the change to "Zaniechaj" and
> after the change 
> you tried (struggled) to use it?

No, I had never used KDE *in Polish* before the change occurred is what I meant. I had only tried KDE in English before. I'm a person learned in both linguistics and computers, so I didn't have any problems. But here's the thing, I, like you, am a learned person. In my experience, the typical user gets confused a *lot* when presented with different wording than they've been seeing for years (Windows, Android, modern Apple platforms).
> 
> > On the other hand, I
> > don't think idiosyncrasies like this one are exactly good, for example when
> > someone unfamiliar with KDE tries supporting a user over the phone… Has
> > anyone considered this? In software translation, you don't want "cute" or
> > "where's the 'Anuluj' button" to be the first reaction.
> 
> I want to get you right: an expert unfamiliar with KDE tries to help a novice
> also unfamiliar with KDE on how to achieve something in KDE. He does so by
> phone conversation.
> The key here should be presence of "Anuluj" button otherwise there would be
> searching for it.

In this scenario, neither the expert, nor the user are even aware they're running KDE. The user is agitated and puts pressure on the "so-called expert" to solve their problem at all costs. The expert may assume things because of that.

> Here is how I consider the situation, I understood:
> First, I think that "Zaniechaj" equals "Anuluj" so that's not like the
> meaning has changed. In English 
> you could also say "Dove" and "Pigeon" and AFAIK that would mean exactly the
> same. No confusion here.

Well, on paper it hasn't. However, some people don't know the formal definition of "Anuluj". I don't have a real-life example for that, but I do have one for the word "Edycja" (Edit). My grandmother was recently confused by this word, because she was used to seeing it in a web app, where clicking it opened a separate screen that showed more details about something than could be seen normally, in addition to making them editable. So, she told, she thought it means something like "show more details". Then, she encountered it in a situation, where tapping the "Edytuj" button didn't show more stuff, leaving her tapping over and over, looking for more stuff.
Encountering the same word in a different place, where the *apparent effect* (to them) is different, may leave them confused.
Likewise, users may not associate "Anuluj" and "Zaniechaj" with the same concept. Is Microsoft to blame for this?

> Second, I think that the expert has much bigger challenges in helping than
> to find "Anuluj" button, because he is in general unfamiliar with KDE .
> 
> Third, If the expert asks "where's 'Anuluj' button" then he could also ask
> "where's 'Start' button" which is equally important. Should we then
> instantiate Start button in KDE as well? I think not.
> 
Given that the Start button hasn't been labeled since Vista, I think the average user calls any button in the bottom-left corner of the screen a "Start" button. Even then, there's the resort of "the button in the bottom-left corner" (and if that fails, try the upper-left and the upper-right - that can happen on Windows, too). Not so much with our "Anuluj" button, given that different OS' put "OK" and "Anuluj" in different order.
> 
> > Two, Apple had not commissioned a Polish translation of Mac OS before
> > Leopard. However, "Polonizator" fan translations did exist. Hence, it wasn't
> > that Apple 'softened', it was that fan translators were purists, too. At
> > least *they* could argue that there was no existing translation and no
> > prevailing standard (unless you count Windows 95, which was still fairly new
> > at the time these translations started - the oldest one I could find was for
> > Mac OS 9), either. 
> 
> MacOS was translated since 1986.
> Please read and interview with translators
> https://www.computerworld.pl/wywiad/Kwasne-jablka-do-szarlotki,320100.html
> Their opinion on Window translation is that it was: ugly, illogic,
> inconsistent.
> That might be the same time at which someone made decision to be
> incompatible with 
> MacOS and choose "Anuluj" instead of "Poniechaj".
> 
Huh, that's the first time I've heard of this… Have you ever seen it? Where? Only other trace I've found was an archived Allegro listing. I think I would enjoy seeing it.
> > In this case, we have both a long history of KDE using
> > "Anuluj" *and* others using *Anuluj* virtually all around us, including
> > notable applications people run on KDE, like Firefox.
> 
> I see that Firefox and Chrome use native KDE dialogs with "Zaniechaj" in
> them.

Try running a JavaScript that uses window.confirm().
Or closing a window with multiple tabs open.
I'm not talking about Open/Save/Print dialogs here, they should and are properly integrated.

> I also see that you're refering to the majority, similary to Przemysław
> Formela.
> Please read answer I gave to him, so that I mustn't duplicate content
> https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=404286#c31

In this case, I would argue that the language isn't "changing", it "has changed" already. 20 years of continuous usage is quite enough.
> > Three, while I can get behind encouraging use of "purer language", I cannot
> > applaud the decision to change a common UI element without soliciting
> > opinions beforehand.
> 
> I get impression that you're not proud of how things changed.
> Would you solicit opinions beforehand, so that everyone would agree on the
> change?

Since this is a fundamental change that would set us apart? Definitely. However, reading this thread, as well as the relevant thread in the mailing list archives (Sourceforge…), I get the feeling that none of us know how should that be done. I feel this might be a problem with the way l10n at KDE is structured altogether, so you could say this merits a separate discussion.

(In reply to r.rozne from comment #34)

> 
> Since this is a fundamental change that would set us apart? Definitely.
> However, reading this thread, as well as the relevant thread in the mailing
> list archives (Sourceforge…), I get the feeling that none of us know how
> should that be done. I feel this might be a problem with the way l10n at KDE
> is structured altogether, so you could say this merits a separate discussion.

Again, this is not a technical problem. Change the po files and send them for reviews. The problem is that the person who can commit them won't approve them.
This does not depend on the why the translations are stored.

(In reply to NSLW from comment #31)
> (In reply to przem.formela from comment #27)
> > > For me user experience isn't hurt if the word is understandable.
> > User Experience isn't based on personal preference, it's a whole area of
> > scientfiic expertise, grounded in gestalt laws of perception. 
> 
> According to https://www.usertesting.com/blog/gestalt-principles/
> "The human brain is wired to see structure, logic, and patterns. It helps us
> make sense of the world. In the 1920s a group of German psychologists
> developed theories around how people perceive the world around them, called
> Gestalt principles."
> I think we might be over-stretching scope of gestalt principles which are
> about structure, logic, and patterns. I'm not sure if Luigi meant that
> specifically or in general, so I think we might slightly went off-topic
> here. Nevertheless thank you for your explanation. 
> [...]
> "The principle of similarity states that when things appear to be similar to
> each other, we group them together. And we also tend to think they have the
> same function."
Isn't this exactly the case, though? On every other OS you can encounter windows with up to three buttons: OK, Cancel, Apply. Person using Android, Windows, Mac expects there to be these three buttons, named consistently across all platforms. Because that's the pattern they know or, well, at least I do. Further explanation in the next point.
 
> > I'm disappointed that even while seeing that your change disrupts someone's
> > work so much that it makes them create an account here and file a bug (which
> > isn't something a regular user wants to do) you still don't consider that
> > enough of a feedback to actually revert - or even consider reverting - the
> > change. 
> 
> The change disrupts your work because you don't know what "zaniechaj" does
> and you know what "anuluj" does?
I know what both of these do. But I don't **read** button text, I **look** at it. That's even one of principles of quick text reading, if I remember correctly.
I'm not in a research mood to point to specific papers but I'm pretty sure that's what people do most of the time, when interacting with UI elements as well. 
So, in this case, user doesn't read three buttons: "OK, Anuluj, Zastosuj". They see "Button with OK, Button with A..j, button with Z...j". When we switch from "Anuluj" to "Zaniechaj", we end up with two buttons having "Z..j", thus disabling the ability to quickly estabilishing function of the button with a glance and extending the time it takes to actually choose the desired button.

> > The way you approach actual feedback given to you isn't community-
> > nor improvement-oriented.
> 
> I presume that you don't see this change as making anything valuable to you.
> In our devel list I wrote:
> "My motivation is to promote the use of Polish language and enhance its
> quality 
> in software."
> Don't you see it as improvement of Polish wording in software?
I'm sorry, but I really don't. "OK" is not a polish word. "Kontynuuj" isn't. "Menu" isn't. I don't see a point in having well-known "Anuluj" replaced with a word, which is "more Polish" by some standards I really don't understand.

> > > Would you like to hold the right to make all the decisions but do no work
> > > and take no responsibility for it? I disagree with that point of view.
> > Nobody says you have to agree with that. If you volunteer to make work for
> > the community, you should at least try to respect community's needs and
> > decisions.
> 
> It seems to me that you're frustrated and would require obedience from me.
> By you saying "[you] work for the community" I feel disrespected because it
> places
> me (worker) below you (community). I believe, that I deliver work that
> benefits Polish language and the community.
I'm sorry, I didn't want to make you feel disrespected. It just seems to me that in this case, Polish language and community might be at odds and your work will benefit either of those, but not both.

> > You are basically trying to make people go away from KDE - and from the
> > community - based on your own preferences (which nobody in this thread
> > agreed with so far).
> 
> Please don't try to make false accusations. I do not try to make people go
> away from KDE.
What I meant here is that, for me, this is an expected **result**. As I've explained above and below, this decision impairs productivity.

> > > The fact that I don't do as anyone would like doesn't mean that I don't
> > > listen to anyone or to you particularly. 
> > So you're basically telling us that you've acknowledged our needs and
> > decided that you know better what they are.
> 
> Please don't try to ridicule me by saying "you know better".
> I believe we all have the same need i.e. the translations to be
> understandable.
I'm not trying to ridicule you here. I feel this is your attitude based on all your responses in this thread.

Having understandable labels is not enough for UI to be good. If it was, we wouldn't need icons nor colors to differentiate elements.
I will understand what the button means when I read it, but I prefer to do that without having to actually read it.

I'm pretty sure a person who never used a computer before and never will use DE other than KDE won't have problems with your decision. They'll learn quickly enough that "the second button always cancels" and when they'll want to cancel, they'll use the second button. Easy-peasy.
But for people coming from any other graphical interface, this will be a problem. The buttons might be ordered differently, so placement itself won't be enough. Icons? Some DEs have those, some don't. Having at least this one similarity helps tremendously when switching to KDE or working on many different systems daily.

> > You prefer disturbing people's work for the idea of pure language,
> > forgetting completely that language is constantly changing.
> 
> I've got impression that language is changing because of globalization.
> There is less Polish in Polish. In my opinion, if there is a Polish word
> that did not fall out of use
> then we should use it instead of English word where appropriate.
> 
> > https://sjp.pwn.pl/poradnia/haslo/anulacja;13028.html
> 
> Thank you, but what did you want to show with that example?
I wanted to show you that "Anuluj" and its derivatives can surely be considered polish words, since they are part of Polish language's text corpus.

In my opinion, there were probably many words that were part of polish language that are not anymore because of "outside" (latin, french, english) influences. Yet nothing wrong happened with the language, it's still Polish, just a new version of it. I believe forcing this change on others just for the sake of purity, whatever that exactly means, is not a good solution here.

(In reply to r.rozne from comment #34)
> > You used Polish translation in KDE before the change to "Zaniechaj" and
> > after the change 
> > you tried (struggled) to use it?
> 
> No, I had never used KDE *in Polish* before the change occurred is what I
> meant. I had only tried KDE in English before.

OK, I get that you've switched to Polish after the change to "Zaniechaj". I'm curious what this word 
has to do with your switch. Was the word a trigger for you or was it by sheer accident?


> I'm a person learned in both
> linguistics and computers, so I didn't have any problems. But here's the
> thing, I, like you, am a learned person. In my experience, the typical user
> gets confused a *lot* when presented with different wording than they've
> been seeing for years (Windows, Android, modern Apple platforms).

I reckon you adapted fast to the change. Do you feel concerned about how fast other users
may adapt considering that they're not as confident in computer skills as you?

In my experience, every user gets confused with anything new, e.g.
switch from Windows to Linux is confusing in itself.
Some learned users, like you, may get it fast and some may get it slow.
I think, actions that don't confuse user are bug-fixes.
Any other change is considered confusing.
That way there would be no space for improvement because no way for a change.

> In this scenario, neither the expert, nor the user are even aware they're
> running KDE. The user is agitated and puts pressure on the "so-called
> expert" to solve their problem at all costs. The expert may assume things
> because of that.

I suggest we drop considering this example, because to me "cancel" button doesn't play key role in it
and I believe it is rare.

> Well, on paper it hasn't. However, some people don't know the formal
> definition of "Anuluj". I don't have a real-life example for that, but I do
> have one for the word "Edycja" (Edit). My grandmother was recently confused
> by this word, because she was used to seeing it in a web app, where clicking
> it opened a separate screen that showed more details about something than
> could be seen normally, in addition to making them editable. So, she told,
> she thought it means something like "show more details". Then, she
> encountered it in a situation, where tapping the "Edytuj" button didn't show
> more stuff, leaving her tapping over and over, looking for more stuff.
> Encountering the same word in a different place, where the *apparent effect*
> (to them) is different, may leave them confused.
> Likewise, users may not associate "Anuluj" and "Zaniechaj" with the same
> concept. Is Microsoft to blame for this?

First, I don't want to blame anyone (or encourage such actions) for anything
and in this particular case Microsoft for translating "cancel" as "anuluj".

Second, You told us your grandmother case. It seems to me, she felt confused because 
she expected some consistency in the use of word "Edycja", right?

Third, I have issues following your third thought after your first though.
There seems to be no connection to me between them.

When I read "associating [word] with concept" I see the word as being jargon because it
has to be associated with a concept and I want to avoid using jargon words in translations.

I see that you're concerned if the user will catch that "anuluj" and "zaniechaj" means the 
same concept. 
In English KDE there are "Settings" , "Configuration", "Options" that from function point of view
mean the same to me, nevertheless three words are used. It seems to me that users adapted to it.


> Given that the Start button hasn't been labeled since Vista, I think the
> average user calls any button in the bottom-left corner of the screen a
> "Start" button. Even then, there's the resort of "the button in the
> bottom-left corner" (and if that fails, try the upper-left and the
> upper-right - that can happen on Windows, too). Not so much with our
> "Anuluj" button, given that different OS' put "OK" and "Anuluj" in different
> order.

You're right. Start button is no more. Someday the change must have happened though
and I believe it was confusing.


> > MacOS was translated since 1986. 
> Huh, that's the first time I've heard of this… Have you ever seen it? Where?
> Only other trace I've found was an archived Allegro listing. I think I would
> enjoy seeing it.

The real machine? No. I've seen their dictionary from 1992.
https://aresluna.org/attached/terminology/glossaries/mac

> Try running a JavaScript that uses window.confirm().
> Or closing a window with multiple tabs open.
> I'm not talking about Open/Save/Print dialogs here, they should and are
> properly integrated.

You're stating the fact that other software uses dominant Windows standard. 


> In this case, I would argue that the language isn't "changing", it "has
> changed" already. 20 years of continuous usage is quite enough.

Yes, it changed and I'm shocked by seeing events sponsored by city authorities under name 
"Grand opening" or "Beach volleyball" (spelling of the events left original)


> > I get impression that you're not proud of how things changed.
> > Would you solicit opinions beforehand, so that everyone would agree on the
> > change?
> 
> Since this is a fundamental change that would set us apart? Definitely.

I presume that you treat "anuluj" as fundamental word. You also said that "zaniechaj" is "[...] cute. I like it."
Are you happy and unhappy with the change at the same time? The earlier, because you would like to observe purer language. The latter, because you would like everybody to be as whole and in harmony.

(In reply to przem.formela from comment #36)
> > According to https://www.usertesting.com/blog/gestalt-principles/
> > "The human brain is wired to see structure, logic, and patterns. It helps us
> > make sense of the world. In the 1920s a group of German psychologists
> > developed theories around how people perceive the world around them, called
> > Gestalt principles."
> > I think we might be over-stretching scope of gestalt principles which are
> > about structure, logic, and patterns. I'm not sure if Luigi meant that
> > specifically or in general, so I think we might slightly went off-topic
> > here. Nevertheless thank you for your explanation. 
> > [...]
> > "The principle of similarity states that when things appear to be similar to
> > each other, we group them together. And we also tend to think they have the
> > same function."
> Isn't this exactly the case, though? 

I'm not sure after reading "Examples of the similarity principle" on
https://www.usertesting.com/blog/gestalt-principles/
Could you tell me why did you originally think that I ignored the rule of similarity? 


> On every other OS you can encounter
> windows with up to three buttons: OK, Cancel, Apply. Person using Android,
> Windows, Mac expects there to be these three buttons, named consistently
> across all platforms. Because that's the pattern they know or, well, at
> least I do. Further explanation in the next point.

I get impression that you're using all those systems and have certain
certain expectations and preferences to them.

I used or worked in them as well. For me translation of word
"cancel" wasn't the key to master those OS's. Nothing which I remembered
from Windows has helped me to get around on MacOS. Waste bin on Android
is not by default on my "desktop" and god knows how to add it there.

Would you mind telling me why do you put such pressure on 
"cancel" being translated in the same way if Android, MacOS, and Windows
have many basic quirks and features so different?
For example, don't you want MacOS minimize/maximize/close
buttons which are on the left side of window title bar to be on the right side like "in all other OS's" as well?


> I know what both of these do. But I don't **read** button text, I **look**
> at it. That's even one of principles of quick text reading, if I remember
> correctly.
> I'm not in a research mood to point to specific papers but I'm pretty sure
> that's what people do most of the time, when interacting with UI elements as
> well. 
> So, in this case, user doesn't read three buttons: "OK, Anuluj, Zastosuj".
> They see "Button with OK, Button with A..j, button with Z...j". When we
> switch from "Anuluj" to "Zaniechaj", we end up with two buttons having
> "Z..j", thus disabling the ability to quickly estabilishing function of the
> button with a glance and extending the time it takes to actually choose the
> desired button.

I'm not sure why have you replaced inside letters with dots. That conflicts with my
need to see shape of a word or its upper/lower part to guess what's the word is.
Is covering inside letters a method that allows you to read words faster?


> > > The way you approach actual feedback given to you isn't community-
> > > nor improvement-oriented.
> > 
> > I presume that you don't see this change as making anything valuable to you.
> > In our devel list I wrote:
> > "My motivation is to promote the use of Polish language and enhance its
> > quality 
> > in software."
> > Don't you see it as improvement of Polish wording in software?
> I'm sorry, but I really don't. "OK" is not a polish word. "Kontynuuj" isn't.
> "Menu" isn't. I don't see a point in having well-known "Anuluj" replaced
> with a word, which is "more Polish" by some standards I really don't
> understand.

You mention many outside words for which native replacements would
be difficult to find. It's not difficult to find native replacement for "anuluj".
It's why I think that word is redundant in our language and instead of helping
Polish, it takes its distinctiveness.

I looked at other languages in KDE to see if "OK" is spread only in Polish and 
found that it's spread all over the world :) There are some exceptions though:
1) In Ukrainian OK is translated as "Гаразд" which I believe means "dobrze"
2) In Spanish  OK is translated as "Aceptar"
3) In Catalan OK is translated as "D'acord" which I believe means "zgoda"

By that example, I would like you to see that even such popular and understandable
word as OK has been replaced by local words. I think, that "D'acord" gives a
special feeling that one uses Catalan.


> I'm sorry, I didn't want to make you feel disrespected. It just seems to me
> that in this case, Polish language and community might be at odds and your
> work will benefit either of those, but not both.

I find that paragraph well said. It makes me sad though because I expected that
every Pole would like to have more Polish words in his vocabulary thus making 
his language more autonomous and thriving.


> > Please don't try to make false accusations. I do not try to make people go
> > away from KDE.
> What I meant here is that, for me, this is an expected **result**. As I've
> explained above and below, this decision impairs productivity.

I get that you see some inherent qualities of "zaniechaj" as impairing 
productivity. I follow-up "above and below".


> Having understandable labels is not enough for UI to be good. If it was, we
> wouldn't need icons nor colors to differentiate elements.
> I will understand what the button means when I read it, but I prefer to do
> that without having to actually read it.

I get, that you read "zaniechaj" every time and cannot do it otherwise now.
Would you mind telling me what stops you from memorizing "zaniechaj" just 
as "anuluj"?


> I'm pretty sure a person who never used a computer before and never will use
> DE other than KDE won't have problems with your decision. They'll learn
> quickly enough that "the second button always cancels" and when they'll want
> to cancel, they'll use the second button. Easy-peasy.
> But for people coming from any other graphical interface, this will be a
> problem. The buttons might be ordered differently, so placement itself won't
> be enough. Icons? Some DEs have those, some don't. Having at least this one
> similarity helps tremendously when switching to KDE or working on many
> different systems daily.

From above paragraph I get impression that clicking buttons is some arcade game.
Thus it's difficult for me to relate because I see it as a thought process i.e. a question 
is asked, I want to answer it but have no freedom because my answers are predefined,
so I have to choose one of them.
In real life, if someone would ask me e.g. for a favour, I would have freedom to answer
and could say: "OK", "Tak" (English Yes), "Zgoda" (English Agreed). All the answers 
aren't similar to each other but convey the same meaning. Both persons understand
and don't limit themselves on used variants because it doesn't impair understanding.


> > > https://sjp.pwn.pl/poradnia/haslo/anulacja;13028.html
> > 
> > Thank you, but what did you want to show with that example?
> I wanted to show you that "Anuluj" and its derivatives can surely be
> considered polish words, since they are part of Polish language's text
> corpus.

I get, that by seeing a word in Polish language text corpus is enough
for you to consider word Polish.
I don't agree with that. I think a word can be considered Polish 
if it stems from within Polish culture. The "Anuluj" clearly stems from Romance language
culture. The word is in dictionary to explain its meaning.

> In my opinion, there were probably many words that were part of polish
> language that are not anymore because of "outside" (latin, french, english)
> influences. Yet nothing wrong happened with the language, it's still Polish,
> just a new version of it. I believe forcing this change on others just for
> the sake of purity, whatever that exactly means, is not a good solution here.

So you're conscious of outside influences and disappearing mother language words
but see nothing wrong with it.
Do you feel at ease because what's important to you is to be able to clearly communicate with 
whatever words are in circulation?

(In reply to NSLW from comment #37)
> (In reply to r.rozne from comment #34)
> > > You used Polish translation in KDE before the change to "Zaniechaj" and
> > > after the change 
> > > you tried (struggled) to use it?
> > 
> > No, I had never used KDE *in Polish* before the change occurred is what I
> > meant. I had only tried KDE in English before.
> 
> OK, I get that you've switched to Polish after the change to "Zaniechaj".
> I'm curious what this word 
> has to do with your switch. Was the word a trigger for you or was it by
> sheer accident?

It was complete coincidence. I just decided to set up a shared workstation with Kubuntu 18.10 for reasons and noticed the unusual translation. I honestly haven't thought much about it (in large part because I haven't used the workstation a whole lot myself) until I saw the complaints.

> […]
> > In this case, I would argue that the language isn't "changing", it "has
> > changed" already. 20 years of continuous usage is quite enough.
> 
> Yes, it changed and I'm shocked by seeing events sponsored by city
> authorities under name 
> "Grand opening" or "Beach volleyball" (spelling of the events left original)

Not too surprising to me. Another sign of globalization. Some just feel 'English is cool'.
> 
> > > I get impression that you're not proud of how things changed.
> > > Would you solicit opinions beforehand, so that everyone would agree on the
> > > change?
> > 
> > Since this is a fundamental change that would set us apart? Definitely.
> 
> I presume that you treat "anuluj" as fundamental word. You also said that
> "zaniechaj" is "[...] cute. I like it."
> Are you happy and unhappy with the change at the same time? The earlier,
> because you would like to observe purer language. The latter, because you
> would like everybody to be as whole and in harmony.

That's… Exactly how I feel, actually. You couldn't have put it better. Combined with your other arguments, I feel satisfied enough to not contend this matter any further.

(In reply to NSLW from comment #38)
> > > According to https://www.usertesting.com/blog/gestalt-principles/
> > > "The human brain is wired to see structure, logic, and patterns. It helps us
> > > make sense of the world. In the 1920s a group of German psychologists
> > > developed theories around how people perceive the world around them, called
> > > Gestalt principles."
> > > I think we might be over-stretching scope of gestalt principles which are
> > > about structure, logic, and patterns. I'm not sure if Luigi meant that
> > > specifically or in general, so I think we might slightly went off-topic
> > > here. Nevertheless thank you for your explanation. 
> > > [...]
> > > "The principle of similarity states that when things appear to be similar to
> > > each other, we group them together. And we also tend to think they have the
> > > same function."
> > Isn't this exactly the case, though? 
> 
> I'm not sure after reading "Examples of the similarity principle" on
> https://www.usertesting.com/blog/gestalt-principles/
> Could you tell me why did you originally think that I ignored the rule of
> similarity? 
I'm talking about the wider "perception" of interacting with OS. If things look similar between different OSes, you expect them to work the same way.


> > On every other OS you can encounter
> > windows with up to three buttons: OK, Cancel, Apply. Person using Android,
> > Windows, Mac expects there to be these three buttons, named consistently
> > across all platforms. Because that's the pattern they know or, well, at
> > least I do. Further explanation in the next point.
> 
> I get impression that you're using all those systems and have certain
> certain expectations and preferences to them.
> 
> I used or worked in them as well. For me translation of word
> "cancel" wasn't the key to master those OS's. Nothing which I remembered
> from Windows has helped me to get around on MacOS. Waste bin on Android
> is not by default on my "desktop" and god knows how to add it there.
> 
> Would you mind telling me why do you put such pressure on 
> "cancel" being translated in the same way if Android, MacOS, and Windows
> have many basic quirks and features so different?
> For example, don't you want MacOS minimize/maximize/close
> buttons which are on the left side of window title bar to be on the right
> side like "in all other OS's" as well?
Yes' I'd love that. It's one of the reasons I'm not using MacOS nor Ubuntu in its default form. Why? Because consistency in UX is important to me. I want to sit in front of a new OS and have the most basic tasks done (like applying/discarding changes) in a similar way.


> > I know what both of these do. But I don't **read** button text, I **look**
> > at it. That's even one of principles of quick text reading, if I remember
> > correctly.
> > I'm not in a research mood to point to specific papers but I'm pretty sure
> > that's what people do most of the time, when interacting with UI elements as
> > well. 
> > So, in this case, user doesn't read three buttons: "OK, Anuluj, Zastosuj".
> > They see "Button with OK, Button with A..j, button with Z...j". When we
> > switch from "Anuluj" to "Zaniechaj", we end up with two buttons having
> > "Z..j", thus disabling the ability to quickly estabilishing function of the
> > button with a glance and extending the time it takes to actually choose the
> > desired button.
> 
> I'm not sure why have you replaced inside letters with dots. That conflicts
> with my
> need to see shape of a word or its upper/lower part to guess what's the word
> is.
> Is covering inside letters a method that allows you to read words faster?
Going after https://www.mrc-cbu.cam.ac.uk/people/matt.davis/cmabridge/
TL;DR: When it comes to short words, people don't read them; instead, they predict the word based on the context.

In this particular case, "Zaniechaj" and "Zastosuj" look so similar (both start with Za- and end with -j) that it's easy to click "Zaniechaj" instead of "Zastosuj" and vice-versa when a person does that without much thinking (and in good UX a person shouldn't need to think specifically about which button they need to click if the two have completely opposite effects). In case of "Anuluj", it's distinguishable enough from "Zastosuj" that this problem doesn't occur.

> > > > https://sjp.pwn.pl/poradnia/haslo/anulacja;13028.html
> > > 
> > > Thank you, but what did you want to show with that example?
> > I wanted to show you that "Anuluj" and its derivatives can surely be
> > considered polish words, since they are part of Polish language's text
> > corpus.
> 
> I get, that by seeing a word in Polish language text corpus is enough
> for you to consider word Polish.
> I don't agree with that. I think a word can be considered Polish 
> if it stems from within Polish culture. The "Anuluj" clearly stems from
> Romance language
> culture. The word is in dictionary to explain its meaning.
> 
> > In my opinion, there were probably many words that were part of polish
> > language that are not anymore because of "outside" (latin, french, english)
> > influences. Yet nothing wrong happened with the language, it's still Polish,
> > just a new version of it. I believe forcing this change on others just for
> > the sake of purity, whatever that exactly means, is not a good solution here.
> 
> So you're conscious of outside influences and disappearing mother language
> words
> but see nothing wrong with it.
> Do you feel at ease because what's important to you is to be able to clearly
> communicate with 
> whatever words are in circulation?

Yes. I don't believe that polish words are better just because they are polish.

Time flies and KDE is kept apart from the standard because of a single person decission to "fix" a word in just KDE. 

NSLW wrote (I'd be happy if you unhide your name in these records as a minimum attitude for a maintainer, and a way to somehow connecting to the KDE project - you seem very much disconnected in a me-vs-others way? other persons even on this bug page keep the names in the public):

> In German, one translates "cancel" as "abbrechen" and not as "annullieren". Both words exist in German though.

It's not the topic in hand. Correct question is how many translations perform the same type of revolution/deviating from other vendors by such one-sided change you did without a review request of any kind. 

In other words, if we had `Zaniechaj` originally in PL computing dictionary (say, in the government committee I've been working for) and in so large percentage of installations out there (including the web), there would be exact the same discussion if changed to 'Anuluj' without prior discussion on what's best for the community project's goals. 

Do you know that preserving the Polish language (and reinventing sometimes at all costs) is a not primary goal of the KDE project but at most secondary goal? Primary goal is delivering useful Free software to the users. To make that possible requirement is to preserve community of creators and contributors in order to keep the project alive and in a good shape to achieve the first goal. Distancing from the mainstream is against of all that.
In the adult world secondary goal is the one that is abandoned as a compromise when primary goal is harm in any way otherwise.

Secondly, how about the "OK" word? How is that different from Anuluj.
It is a fact that it's not even English term but Americanism, yet it is generally adopted by so many translations for ultimate compatibility with translation standards across vendors. 

So your position is unchanged as if you ignored dozens of contributors telling you're wrong; despite of that, there is your own fork of translations proposed on the table, what shows extraordinary good will I think. It is close to last chance for you to keep your ideas published within the project, so let's say, last day of 2019 is a deadline for this proposal. Otherwise I'd only wait to the Community working group's verdict, which is unfortunate choice given how confusing the problem is (the said absurd, I'll repeat, is best word for that).

(In reply to przem.formela from comment #40)
> > I'm not sure after reading "Examples of the similarity principle" on
> > https://www.usertesting.com/blog/gestalt-principles/
> > Could you tell me why did you originally think that I ignored the rule of
> > similarity? 
> I'm talking about the wider "perception" of interacting with OS. If things
> look similar between different OSes, you expect them to work the same way.

I presume, you're expecting from every OS that it should allow a user to
use what he has memorized from handling UX of other OS's.
I suggest we drop this thread, because I think its essence is out of scope of Gestalt principles,
and I believe the essence is touched in some other thread.

> Yes' I'd love that. It's one of the reasons I'm not using MacOS nor Ubuntu
> in its default form. Why? Because consistency in UX is important to me. I
> want to sit in front of a new OS and have the most basic tasks done (like
> applying/discarding changes) in a similar way.

It seems to me that you need consistency in UX across different OS's to be 
able to do efficiently everything you want to do without the need to learn 
new things about those OS's.
I had belief that one switches to particular OS because one like the way things are
designed in that particular OS better than in any other.
Do you switch between those OS's to be able to tell that you're swift with them?

You also said that you use neither MacOS nor Ubuntu in its default form. I presume,
you're customizing UX on those OS's to your own taste.
Are you dissatisfied with their default UX because it's not consistent with Windows UX?


> Going after https://www.mrc-cbu.cam.ac.uk/people/matt.davis/cmabridge/
> TL;DR: When it comes to short words, people don't read them; instead, they
> predict the word based on the context.

In the article, I found what I think you're referring to in two citations referenced below:

"Short words are easy - 2 or 3 letter words don't change at all. The only change that is possible in a 4 letter words is to swap the order of the middle letters which doesn't cause too much difficulty (see 4)."

The researchers qualified 2 to 3 letter words as short. "Anuluj", "Zaniechaj", "Zastosuj" are much longer than 3 letters, so I think our words are out of scope.
In the article I've neither find nor inferred from the content that researchers claim that words are predicted on context.

"Aoccdrnig to a rscheearch at Cmabrigde Uinervtisy, it deosn't mttaer in waht oredr the ltteers in a wrod are, the olny iprmoetnt tihng is taht the frist and lsat ltteer be at the rghit pclae. The rset can be a toatl mses and you can sitll raed it wouthit porbelm. Tihs is bcuseae the huamn mnid deos not raed ervey lteter by istlef, but the wrod as a wlohe."

The researchers wrote that it's important that first and last letter stay in place and that middle letters can be total mess. That doesn't mean they can be random letters from the alphabet. That would be illogical, because every word would have to be recognizable only by first and last letter and the combination of such would be only ~ 23^2 = 529 words, where 23 is letters count of basic Latin alphabet, and 2 is count of first, and last letter.


> In this particular case, "Zaniechaj" and "Zastosuj" look so similar (both
> start with Za- and end with -j) that it's easy to click "Zaniechaj" instead
> of "Zastosuj" and vice-versa when a person does that without much thinking
> (and in good UX a person shouldn't need to think specifically about which
> button they need to click if the two have completely opposite effects). In
> case of "Anuluj", it's distinguishable enough from "Zastosuj" that this
> problem doesn't occur.

I agree with you that "Anuluj" is better distinguishable than "Zaniechaj" in comparison to "Zastosuj"
and I think that "Zaniechaj" is distinguishable enough from "Zastosuj" because besides first two and last one letter
inside letters are completely different between them.

There is similar case in Spanish where:
1) "OK"        is translated as "Aceptar" 
2) "Apply"    is translated as "Aplicar"
3) "Cancel"  is translated as "Cancelar"
You've got "Aceptar" and "Aplicar" which:
1) both are 7 characters long (close to 9 letters of "Zaniechaj" and 8 letters of "Zastosuj")
2) have first and two last letters the same
3) appear in dialog windows and in close proximity to each other

I think, that if Spanish speaking people differentiate two not distant words, which have 
first and last letter the same, then it should be a proof, that Polish speaking people 
will differentiate our two words as well, because we share alphabet with Spanish.


> Yes. I don't believe that polish words are better just because they are
> polish.

Then it seems we fundamentally differ in our opinions.
I believe some people still use words like:
1) "drajwery/drivery" (English drivers) to denote "sterowniki",
2) "zcancelować/zkancelować" (English cancel) to denote "zaniechaj",
3) "akceleracja" (English acceleration) to denote "przyspieszenie",
4) "simultanicznie" (English simultaneously/in parallel) to denote "równocześnie/równolegle".

"Anuluj" has been created in the same way. One just prepends and appends some letters to 
foreign word, and then puts "Polish word" sticker on it.

I think that not using Polish word, when there is one, indicates language poorness of the speaker
and I would like to promote language richness.

(In reply to Jarosław Staniek from comment #41)
> Time flies and KDE is kept apart from the standard because of a single
> person decission to "fix" a word in just KDE. 

MacOS promoted "Poniechaj" from 1986 to 2006 (20 years) and because of 
duration it could be qualified as a standard for me. Don't you recognize MacOS wording 
as standard because this OS lost battle for market dominance with 
Windows?

> NSLW wrote (I'd be happy if you unhide your name in these records as a
> minimum attitude for a maintainer, and a way to somehow connecting to the
> KDE project - you seem very much disconnected in a me-vs-others way? other
> persons even on this bug page keep the names in the public):

My real name is visible after you hover on my nickname here. Maybe I'll follow your 
suggestion about growing connection and change it some time in future.
Now I'm afraid, that it might be used to smear my name in posts like this one
https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=415209#c1
and I would like to have my peace as well.

> > In German, one translates "cancel" as "abbrechen" and not as "annullieren". Both words exist in German though.
> 
> It's not the topic in hand. Correct question is how many translations
> perform the same type of revolution/deviating from other vendors by such
> one-sided change you did without a review request of any kind. 

It seems to me that you ignore language researches that I've made
and would like to base decision on statistics or the voice of majority.
I'm feared because I consider Polish language mine too and would 
like to have more freedom in shaping it than vendors like Microsoft,
which don't stem from Polish culture.


> In other words, if we had `Zaniechaj` originally in PL computing dictionary
> (say, in the government committee I've been working for) and in so large
> percentage of installations out there (including the web), there would be
> exact the same discussion if changed to 'Anuluj' without prior discussion on
> what's best for the community project's goals. 

I had difficulties understanding this paragraph. Do you want to say that
for you neither "zaniechaj" nor "anuluj" is bad but the change from one to another?

I would like to research the government committee you said you've 
been working for. Is it possible for you to give a link for more details?

I think your committee might be great chance to get Polish wording in 
software straight. Does your committee considered consulting linguist Mirosław Bańko
on e.g. translation for "cancel"?
From his post:
https://sjp.pwn.pl/poradnia/haslo/poniechac;7346.html
I reckon he's concious but not biased to standards when it comes
to translations.


> Do you know that preserving the Polish language (and reinventing sometimes
> at all costs) is a not primary goal of the KDE project but at most secondary
> goal? Primary goal is delivering useful Free software to the users. To make
> that possible requirement is to preserve community of creators and
> contributors in order to keep the project alive and in a good shape to
> achieve the first goal. Distancing from the mainstream is against of all
> that.

On the website https://kde.org/goals I did not found any information 
about neither any primary nor any secondary goal. Moreover I did not find the 
goals you wrote. Please be more specific and link me to a source
of information you would like to bring here.

> In the adult world secondary goal is the one that is abandoned as a
> compromise when primary goal is harm in any way otherwise.

By you saying "adult world" I get impression, that you're judging people by their age.
I feel disgusted because I would like to see contributors of all age included
and merited by their creativity.
In fact, I was amazed that meaning of word "dzban" (Polish word of the year 2018 according to sjp.pwn.pl)
that, in my impression got with its popularity outside of youth, was invented probably by 14 year old boy :O


> Secondly, how about the "OK" word? How is that different from Anuluj.
> It is a fact that it's not even English term but Americanism, yet it is
> generally adopted by so many translations for ultimate compatibility with
> translation standards across vendors. 

I agree with you that "OK" is spread across the world and moreover in original form.
It looks as if humanity understands it the same way as it understands that nodding 
one's head up and down means agreement.

I wonder why languages like: Ukrainian, Spanish, Catalan, Basque, Serbian, Greek, Turkish, Chinese,
Korean, Arabic, Hebrew, Punjabi, and probably some others translated it differently.

Looking at how others handled "OK" I would suggest to translate it to something like
"zgoda/dobrze" but unlike with "anuluj/poniechaj":
1) I found no groups in the internet in favour of one or another,
2) I have no confirmation from a linguist,
3) I'm afraid that the change would cause more heated discussions.


> So your position is unchanged as if you ignored dozens of contributors
> telling you're wrong;

It seems to me that we fundamentally differ in our opinions.
I see that "being in minority" doesn't mean "being wrong" and that "being 
in majority" doesn't mean "being right". 
Please read the quotes of Jean Cocteau and Mark Twain from the answer
I gave earlier
https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=404286#c31
so that I wouldn't have to duplicate content.


> despite of that, there is your own fork of
> translations proposed on the table, what shows extraordinary good will I
> think. It is close to last chance for you to keep your ideas published
> within the project, so let's say, last day of 2019 is a deadline for this
> proposal. Otherwise I'd only wait to the Community working group's verdict,
> which is unfortunate choice given how confusing the problem is (the said
> absurd, I'll repeat, is best word for that).

Please don't try to subordinate and intimidate me by saying "good will [on my part]" and "[my] last chance".
I'm not on your payroll, so that you can make quarterly reviews of mine and project threats if I won't be obedient to you.

tl;dr translations are not works living alone, they serve for the software and the goals, not the other way round

I think the software authors that were involved in related discussions (long before this ticket was created) have something to say on the topic and they have shared their position based on the fact that the app projects will exist without your "cancel" improvement, not the other way round. Translations as a whole is a subproject and yet a single translation for a minor market is a tiny percentage of the work that builds entire KDE, no matter how appreciated. And above all, you're building on the work of others that worked here before you came.
You've not answered to the proposal on "our own fork of translations", hence your less than ideal reputation in my eyes wrt the openness to find a working solution. This time you seem to drag every sentence out into a separate discussion as if you have too much time for this. I am not willing to contact you with the past language committees and can only friendly state I presume it is pretty much hard to mostly anonymous individual like you. To show my patience I'll refer you to norms around the https://sklep.pkn.pl/pn-iso-iec-2382-9-1998p.html - you can buy them there are browse. Yes, this is a paid content as every official norm of this kind.

Regarding who's depending on which work, I think app maintainers have the right of last word and are (friendly) reviewing your work and performance - because it is natural to me since the beginning that you're translating (also my own) original phrases and sentences that are part of software I donate. And yet, it is not once that the translations are problematic, to say at least, and thus harm the performance of the project's goals. My recent finding is that by your solitary decision for the massive change also broke the quality of documentation.

I see no reason why the translation subproject should be positioned differently in a software project than the UX subproject or documentation or marketing etc. 

You seem quite disconnected from the nature of KDE and FOSS in that you've missed the concretization of goals (end user link at https://dot.kde.org/2019/09/07/kde-decides-three-new-challenges-wayland-consistency-and-apps) where `consistency` between all software on given OS is the grand term.

Before anyone says I've promised not to get involved anymore - I only said anything about *contending* this matter, not *commenting* on it.

I did some Christmas reading and found some extra context here: https://aresluna.org/attached/terminology/articles/gryzieniejablek

Take a look at Figure 3. It shows an early version of the translation our translator says he based his decision on. The authors of that translation clearly did consider using "Anuluj"… To translate "Undo" instead. The glossary shows the ended up using "Odwołaj" instead. Seems to me like they did consider "Anuluj" a Polish word, but they *did* change it later on. Make of that what you will.

Also, regarding this:
>I believe some people still use words like:
>1) "drajwery/drivery" (English drivers) to denote "sterowniki",
>2) "zcancelować/zkancelować" (English cancel) to denote "zaniechaj",
>3) "akceleracja" (English acceleration) to denote "przyspieszenie",
>4) "simultanicznie" (English simultaneously/in parallel) to denote "równocześnie/równolegle".

I've only ever heard and used 1). Well, and 4) (according to the phonetic rules - "symultanicznie"), but only as chess jargon.

 (In reply to Jarosław Staniek from comment #44)
> tl;dr

You wrote "tl;dr" which means "too long; didn't read". Do you feel annoyed
of what you read from me because you expect your opinion to be taken into account more?

> translations are not works living alone, they serve for the software
> and the goals, not the other way round

I presume that you want to say that translations wouldn't exist
without an initiator i.e. the software.
Do you feel entitled because you would like developers, like you, to have control on 
derivatives (translations, artwork, distribution, marketing etc.) of their work?


> I think the software authors that were involved in related discussions (long
> before this ticket was created) have something to say on the topic and they
> have shared their position based on the fact that the app projects will
> exist without your "cancel" improvement, not the other way round.

Of course app project would exist without translation. It's a derivative project after all.

> Translations as a whole is a subproject and yet a single translation for a
> minor market is a tiny percentage of the work that builds entire KDE, no
> matter how appreciated. And above all, you're building on the work of others
> that worked here before you came.

Of course I build on the work of others. Don't we all do that?


> You've not answered to the proposal on "our own fork of translations", hence
> your less than ideal reputation in my eyes wrt the openness to find a
> working solution. 

I believe you wanted to write
"your own fork of translations"
and not
"our own fork of translations"
right?

I had suggested that as a solution and did not withdraw.

You've not answered to my previous post:
1) "Poniechaj" as 20 years old MacOS standard
2) "anuluj" and "zaniechaj" to be neutral unless a change between them occurs


> This time you seem to drag every sentence out into a
> separate discussion as if you have too much time for this.

I think that so much time I spent here could be spent on translating.

You wrote "every sentence". Could you spare a time and give
me one example and explain to me why it shouldn't be 
drag out?

> I am not willing
> to contact you with the past language committees [...]

If I understood correctly, you refuse to give more details about languages committees you've been 
working for and give no objective reason to do so.
I feel suspicious because I would like everyone to be treated equally by giving
full and unrestricted access to information.


> [...]and can only friendly state
> I presume it is pretty much hard to mostly anonymous individual like you.

I have difficulties understanding this paragraph. By you saying 
"hard [for] invidual like you" I've got impression that you're judging me.
Please stop reviewing me as a person by using any adjective together with
either my name or the pronoun "you".


> To show my patience I'll refer you to norms around the
> https://sklep.pkn.pl/pn-iso-iec-2382-9-1998p.html - you can buy them there
> are browse. Yes, this is a paid content as every official norm of this kind.

I looked at PN-ISO/IEC 2382-31 because I did not find PN-ISO/IEC 2382-9 in 
the internet. I'm not sure if 9th part looks similar to 31st but in 31st part I saw very
jargonized vocabulary and I would like to target people that wield average
Polish. I will try to get a view at 9th part though.


> Regarding who's depending on which work, I think app maintainers have the
> right of last word and are (friendly) reviewing your work and performance -
> because it is natural to me since the beginning that you're translating
> (also my own) original phrases and sentences that are part of software I
> donate. And yet, it is not once that the translations are problematic, to
> say at least, and thus harm the performance of the project's goals.

By you saying:
1) who should depend on who
2) who should have last word
3) who should be positioned where
4) which project should be sub-project and which main project
I get impression that you would like to see hierarchy and with it
subordinates and superiors.
Are you dissatisfied because you expect more order and are convinced that 
hierarchy would have more control of it?

BTW. 
I see that KEXI in German still translates
"Formularelement", "Tabellenelement", "Bedienungselement", for English 
"widget". I reported that to you 78 days ago in the following post
https://sourceforge.net/p/kdei18n-pl/mailman/message/36780815/

Have you already asked them to change translation to "widget" the same 
way you did in Polish translation?


> My recent finding is that by your solitary decision for the massive change also
> broke the quality of documentation.

Could you share your findings about breaking quality in documentation in more details?

> You seem quite disconnected from the nature of KDE and FOSS in that you've
> missed the concretization of goals (end user link at
> https://dot.kde.org/2019/09/07/kde-decides-three-new-challenges-wayland-
> consistency-and-apps) where `consistency` between all software on given OS
> is the grand term.

At the link you gave, I read that Niccolò Venerandi - the author of this goal -
explains that because features like tabs are differently implemented in: 
Falkon, Konsole, Dolphin and Kate, they're hard to fix. Do you see his
statement differently?

(In reply to r.rozne from comment #45)
> Before anyone says I've promised not to get involved anymore - I only said
> anything about *contending* this matter, not *commenting* on it.

No problem for me with either one :) I value any non-aggressive contribution
to discussion.

> I did some Christmas reading and found some extra context here:
> https://aresluna.org/attached/terminology/articles/gryzieniejablek
> 
> Take a look at Figure 3. It shows an early version of the translation our
> translator says he based his decision on. The authors of that translation
> clearly did consider using "Anuluj"… To translate "Undo" instead. The
> glossary shows the ended up using "Odwołaj" instead. Seems to me like they
> did consider "Anuluj" a Polish word, but they *did* change it later on. Make
> of that what you will.

Do you make anything of this?

For me it's interesting. It could mean that meaning of "anuluj" was not known 
to public audience before Windows introduced it and taught users what 
it does.
It could also mean that currently we don't know the true meaning of "anuluj" and 
are forced to believe that's not "undo" but "cancel" :)

Off-topic:
Intention of MacOS translator was not to expose users to "computer slang" and "scary [translation] monsters".
I like that attitude.

They also used word "Zmiany" instead of "Edycja" for "Edit". I like the way it converges with my thoughts.
I, not seeing this earlier, independently came to conclusion that "Edycja" should be indeed "Zmiany" but I see that it wouldn't
be consistent with apps that under menu "Edit" put entries like "Find", "Find and replace", "Go to".
On the other hand that would harmonize ideally with "Przywołaj" (for Redo) and "Odwołaj" (for Undo) with which I find problematic to
translate accurately. Maybe changes are worth considering though.

I like the way they translated "interface" as "oblicze" and then called it "Oblicze Macintosha".

Thank you r.rozne for sharing with us this finding, as it brings many inspirations which are unbiased by contemporary Windows standard.

> Also, regarding this:
> >I believe some people still use words like:
> >1) "drajwery/drivery" (English drivers) to denote "sterowniki",
> >2) "zcancelować/zkancelować" (English cancel) to denote "zaniechaj",
> >3) "akceleracja" (English acceleration) to denote "przyspieszenie",
> >4) "simultanicznie" (English simultaneously/in parallel) to denote "równocześnie/równolegle".
> 
> I've only ever heard and used 1). Well, and 4) (according to the phonetic
> rules - "symultanicznie"), but only as chess jargon.

Ok, you're probably right about "symultanicznie". I think, that misspelling shows that foreign 
words aren't necessarily easier to handle even by person, that considers
himself as having experience with computers, like I.

Second word from the list - "zkancelować" - is probably wrong too, according to phonetic rules. In the article, you've posted, author mentions "kancelować" 
as a candidate for "cancel" and I think it's correctly written as such. Anyhow, God bless that it hasn't gained popularity :)

tl;dr is an excerpt of the comment, not indication I've not read your comments.

PS: following this bug it is possible that another bug is in order: "Lack of of consistency of KF5 polish messages with Qt messages wrt the Cancel and some other terms". I have mentioned conflicts with OS dialog messages in previous posts as well but it is enough to state the conflict with Qt ones. It is a repeat from me though since this was covered on translation related mailing list thread much earlier.

Please do not get bogged down in theoretical discussions. This bug is still not resolved, and it is serious. I care deeply about KDE and this bug makes it impossible to convince new people to use this environment. I was using the latest KDE version since at least release 2.0, and now I had to revert to an older version just to be able to use normal, standard dialogs with "Anuluj".

Users really don't care about NSLW's excuses or linguistic theories. KDE is broken in a way that is instantly visible to users (both old and new ones), please fix it.

(In reply to grzebo from comment #49)
> please fix it.

Please STOP saying "fix it" as if it was something that was doable with a quick flick of fingers, if it was, we would have done it months ago.

There's no [easy] solution to this.

There's virtually one translator to Polish and he likes that word. We've tried convincing him otherwise but he doesn't seem to care.

I could [in theory] decide to kick him off the KDE project (though I'm pretty sure it cause a huge ruckus), but how does that help at all?

Then you have ZERO Polish translators left, great situation, eh?

One idea may be would be to start contributing to the Polish translation team, and then after building a relationship with him it would be easier to convince him. There's quite a few Qt stuff that needs finishing according to http://l10n-files.qt.io/l10n-files/ that could be a relatively independent place to start

(In reply to Albert Astals Cid from comment #50)

This is a serious problem, that really requires immediate fix. It is putting the entire KDE project to ridicule in front of every Polish-speaking user.

This willful translator is constantly causing further damage by breaking new translations. For example: "copy" in context menus instead of "kopiuj" (as in all other Polish software, ever) became "skopiuj", which is exactly the same "correction" as with Anuluj/Zaniechaj - technically correct translation, that might even have some linguistic merit, but is totally inconsistent with everything else in Qt, Gtk, GNOME, Windows, Mac etc. It's only a matter of time until he changes "OK" to "Dobrze" or "Akceptuję" (to add more confusion with "Anuluj"), since this would be consistent with his reasoning.

You cannot allow KDE to be taken hostage by someone, who wants to conduct linguistical experiments on software that actual users are actually using for everyday work.


I have translated many open source projects, many other people with translation skills are using KDE, so maybe the right thing to do is to get rid of the person who breaks the translation and instantly someone else will pick up the slack. This bug is so serious that it is much better to have some latest texts untranslated (which average users might not even encounter), than to have an evident and intentionally jarring translation in literally every dialog window. 

I can start translating for KDE if this is what it takes to correct this terrible error, but there has to be a clear message, that this "NSLW" person will not revert the corrections.

For starters, an easy fix is to replace every incidence of "Zaniechaj" with "Anuluj", one doesn't need to know Polish to implement this, and this wouldn't brake anything, since "Zaniechaj" occurs only in those erroneous translations. 

For almost 20 years KDE (and every other software project) has used Cancel=Anuluj translation, until January of 2019, when one person has somehow gotten an idea to do it differently. It's truly sad, that KDE cannot handle such problems.





> (In reply to grzebo from comment #49)
> > please fix it.
> 
> Please STOP saying "fix it" as if it was something that was doable with a
> quick flick of fingers, if it was, we would have done it months ago.
> 
> There's no [easy] solution to this.
> 
> There's virtually one translator to Polish and he likes that word. We've
> tried convincing him otherwise but he doesn't seem to care.
> 
> I could [in theory] decide to kick him off the KDE project (though I'm
> pretty sure it cause a huge ruckus), but how does that help at all?
> 
> Then you have ZERO Polish translators left, great situation, eh?
> 
> One idea may be would be to start contributing to the Polish translation
> team, and then after building a relationship with him it would be easier to
> convince him. There's quite a few Qt stuff that needs finishing according to
> http://l10n-files.qt.io/l10n-files/ that could be a relatively independent
> place to start

Created attachment 124755 [details]
Skopiuj in GIMP

(In reply to grzebo from comment #49)
> Please do not get bogged down in theoretical discussions. This bug is still
> not resolved, and it is serious. 

Every argument that was raised in this bug had counterargument that invalidated the first one or proven
that the first one was not truth.
The only argument I see is "I want Windows word." which is as good as
counterargument "I want MacOS word."


> Users really don't care about NSLW's excuses or linguistic theories. KDE is
> broken in a way that is instantly visible to users (both old and new ones),
> please fix it.

Please speak for yourself and pay attention to what other peoples have said.
Marcin Kocur said that he would like to promote better language but is concerned about community as well
https://sourceforge.net/p/kdei18n-pl/mailman/message/36773242/
It's similar to what r.rozne have said here
https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=404286#c39
I would have no other stance than them, if I would fear vicious/ferocious people wanting to tear down good initiative.

Moreover, people here care 
https://myapple.pl/forums/topic/4895-anuluj-czy-poniechaj-zdaniem-poradni-j%C4%99zykowej-pwn/
The one that asks question and the one that replies here care 
https://sjp.pwn.pl/poradnia/haslo/poniechac;7346.html


 (In reply to grzebo from comment #51)
 
 > This is a serious problem, that really requires immediate fix. It is putting
> the entire KDE project to ridicule in front of every Polish-speaking user.
> 
> This willful translator is constantly causing further damage by breaking new
> translations.
 
 Are you aware that I translate for KDE mostly alone for over 8 years?
 I don't do it just since couple of months. Are you saying that during all that time
 I constantly were damaging translations?
 

> [...] For example: "copy" in context menus instead of "kopiuj" (as
> in all other Polish software, ever) became "skopiuj", which is exactly the
> same "correction" as with Anuluj/Zaniechaj - technically correct
> translation, that might even have some linguistic merit, but is totally
> inconsistent with everything else in Qt, Gtk, GNOME, Windows, Mac etc.

First, please see attached screen-shot from GIMP. They use "skopiuj", so it's not 
true that "skopiuj" is not used anywhere in popular apps.
Please be more careful in publishing your information as absolute truth because some
people here may base their own opinion on yours and it's degrading to the 
quality of discussion if false information are in circulation.

Second, you're right that "skopiuj" (copy) is linguistic correction i.e. in used tense and consistency with "wklej" (paste).
Right now in many places we've got set of "kopiuj" (copy) and "wklej" (paste), which to my knowledge is illogical in Polish because 
1) "kopiuj" (copy) means copy and keep doing it
2) "wklej" (paste) means paste once and stop doing it
The logical set would be...
1) "kopiuj" (copy) means copy and keep doing it
2) "wklejaj" (paste) means paste and keep doing it
...or
1) "skopiuj" (copy) means copy once and stop doing it
2) "wklej" (paste) means paste once and stop doing it

The first translators of MacOS, interviewed here
https://www.computerworld.pl/wywiad/Kwasne-jablka-do-szarlotki,320100.html
spoken about Windows translation to be "ugly, illogic, inconsistent" and I think 
this simple example with "kopiuj" and "wklej", that you demand to be consistent
with Windows, proofs inconsistency in Polish language.

Third, if you see minor and conscious correction of prepending "s" character to existing translation
as offending and degrading translation, then I think we have fundamentally different 
look at translation. Are you sure that others are with you on case of "skopiuj" as well?

> It's only a matter of time until he changes "OK" to "Dobrze" or "Akceptuję" (to
> add more confusion with "Anuluj"), since this would be consistent with his
> reasoning.

Please don't take things as granted. I'm not going to change 
"OK" to "Dobrze". Please see related answer I gave here
https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=404286#c43
so that I don't have to duplicate text.


> I have translated many open source projects [...]

Could you give any links/references to those many open source projects, you've translated?

> [...], many other people with
> translation skills are using KDE, so maybe the right thing to do is to get
> rid of the person who breaks the translation and instantly someone else will
> pick up the slack. This bug is so serious that it is much better to have
> some latest texts untranslated (which average users might not even
> encounter), than to have an evident and intentionally jarring translation in
> literally every dialog window. 

> I can start translating for KDE if this is what it takes to correct this
> terrible error, but there has to be a clear message, that this "NSLW" person
> will not revert the corrections.

If your only motivation to join translation is to change "zaniechaj" to "anuluj" then I don't see it
as good motivation. I see that you also don't care if texts will be untranslated
and from previous post I see that you don't care, if it's linguistically correct or
will contain copy-over texts. I suspect that your zeal to translate will evaporate
shortly after.

It's easy now to take over translation, because it is translated at high percentage. 
Maintaining high percentage and reviewing translations in parallel requires work 
and devotion though. It's not built on someone's last word or someone
reverting somebody's else translation.

Translation is a moving target and as one can see here
https://l10n.kde.org/stats/gui/trunk-kf5/team/pl/
it gradually loses its previous completeness if nobody works on it.

> For starters, an easy fix is to replace every incidence of "Zaniechaj" with
> "Anuluj", one doesn't need to know Polish to implement this, and this
> wouldn't brake anything, since "Zaniechaj" occurs only in those erroneous
> translations. 

And then what?

(In reply to Albert Astals Cid from comment #50)
> (In reply to grzebo from comment #49)
> > please fix it.
> 
> Please STOP saying "fix it" as if it was something that was doable with a
> quick flick of fingers, if it was, we would have done it months ago.
> 
> There's no [easy] solution to this.
> 
> There's virtually one translator to Polish and he likes that word. We've
> tried convincing him otherwise but he doesn't seem to care.
> 
> I could [in theory] decide to kick him off the KDE project (though I'm
> pretty sure it cause a huge ruckus), but how does that help at all?
> 
> Then you have ZERO Polish translators left, great situation, eh?
> 
> One idea may be would be to start contributing to the Polish translation
> team, and then after building a relationship with him it would be easier to
> convince him. 

What about forking the translation?
Jarosław Staniek seems to be for it
https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=404286#c41

The only person, that I remember, voiced against it is Luigi Toscano
https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=404286#c10

I suggest to have:
1) Polish (Windows)
2) Polish (MacOS)
because it seems that vocabulary, used by me,
resembles users that it's MacOS vocabulary as stated by person who 
originally reported this bug but also here
https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=404286#c4
and here
https://www.wykop.pl/link/4795761/comment/62991259#comment-62991259
where average Kowalski can voice his opinion.

If common user recognizes MacOS vocabulary, then he more or less knows what to expect
from Polish (MacOS).

> There's quite a few Qt stuff that needs finishing according to
> http://l10n-files.qt.io/l10n-files/ that could be a relatively independent
> place to start

I think that's a great idea. I already have offered my help here
https://codereview.qt-project.org/c/qt/qttranslations/+/284474
but I'm not sure, if it will be accepted. Please anyone take initiative
and do something constructive. There's a bit of work to be done there.

(In reply to NSLW from comment #53)
> I suggest to have:
> 1) Polish (Windows)
> 2) Polish (MacOS)

There's no two polish languages (AFAIK), so no, that is not a valid solution.

(In reply to Albert Astals Cid from comment #54)
> (In reply to NSLW from comment #53)
> > I suggest to have:
> > 1) Polish (Windows)
> > 2) Polish (MacOS)
> 
> There's no two polish languages (AFAIK), so no, that is not a valid solution.


That's true but this technical solution would solve social problem for all parties involved here.
There is also no two Belarusian languages (AFAIK) although there are two forks:
1) Belarusian
https://l10n.kde.org/stats/gui/stable-kf5/team/be/

2) Belarusian (Latin)
https://l10n.kde.org/stats/gui/stable-kf5/team/be@latin/

(In reply to NSLW from comment #55)
> (In reply to Albert Astals Cid from comment #54)
> > (In reply to NSLW from comment #53)
> > > I suggest to have:
> > > 1) Polish (Windows)
> > > 2) Polish (MacOS)
> > 
> > There's no two polish languages (AFAIK), so no, that is not a valid solution.
> 
> 
> That's true but this technical solution would solve social problem for all
> parties involved here.
> There is also no two Belarusian languages (AFAIK) although there are two
> forks:
> 1) Belarusian
> https://l10n.kde.org/stats/gui/stable-kf5/team/be/
> 
> 2) Belarusian (Latin)
> https://l10n.kde.org/stats/gui/stable-kf5/team/be@latin/

No, it's the same language. The only difference is the writing script (cyrillic and latin respectively).

(In reply to Albert Astals Cid from comment #54)

> > 2) Polish (MacOS)

Currently MacOS uses Cancel = Anuluj translation. This translation has been used by Apple for the last 15 years. Even Mac users do not have an option to use "Poniechaj" translation currently, as all Polish-language software has standardized on Anuluj. And "NSLW" uses this only as an excuse, since his translation is different from that used by Apple (Apple: Poniechaj, NSLW: Zaniechaj). He's innovative that way.

Every piece of software localized in Polish or written originally in Polish uses Cancel = Anuluj. Games use it (including ones from Polish studios), government software and web services use it, desktop software uses it, mobile software uses it. Only KDE stands out, due to one obstinate translator.



(In reply to NSLW from comment #52)

>  Are you aware that I translate for KDE mostly alone for over 8 years?
>  I don't do it just since couple of months. Are you saying that during all that time I constantly were damaging translations?

I am well aware, and that makes the bug you intentionally created even worse. For 7 years you've left "Cancel" = "Anuluj" alone, and then out of a sudden you mistranslated it as "Zaniechaj". Nothing's changed, you weren't the original translator of KDE, you should've left it as you've found it, and as everyone was familiar with.

The years you've spent with the project mean that you should have known better and should have made appropriate consultations before making such UX-breaking change for no good reason and out of a sudden.


This is not an accidental bug, but an intentional action of "NSLW". He will clearly not fix it. What does it take for KDE Project to take this matter seriously? A petition? Letter writing campaign? Finding a translator, who will pledge to do translations once NSLW is prevented from breaking them?

One of the goal of KDE is consistency. https://dot.kde.org/2019/09/07/kde-decides-three-new-challenges-wayland-consistency-and-apps

In latest months there were done a lot of work to improve that and I am very happy with that. For example GTK3 apps looks and behavior better. I love using Plasma and the rest of Apps.

Unfortunately there is still one thing that made me irritated, broke my workflow and ruin hard earned consistency. When I am using any Java/GKT3/Qt (non-KDE)/Electron/Wine/Android app next to KDE app I am very confused, because of this #BROKEN# translation. 

Please fix that bug. Firstly - because almost no one are using „Zaniechaj” as „Cancel” and almost no one know what does it mean in computer systems. Secondly - it is against one of the KDE goal which is consistency.

Thanks

(In reply to grzebo from comment #57)
> (In reply to Albert Astals Cid from comment #54)
> 
> > > 2) Polish (MacOS)
> 
> Currently MacOS uses Cancel = Anuluj translation. This translation has been
> used by Apple for the last 15 years. 

"Anuluj " is used by Apple since 2006 and that's 14 (and not 15) years
if one will count favourably in relation to 2020.

It's true that MacOS uses "anuluj". They've changed it in times when it 
was clear to everyone that Microsoft established its market power
with Windows XP and it looks as if Apple submitted to them.
Originally they were using "poniechaj" for 20 years - it can hardly be called
a mistake.

I find your view populistic, because to me it bases on the prejudice that the longer 
something is used the more correct it must be. Please don't use that as it makes 
difficult to make conscious picks.


> Even Mac users do not have an option to
> use "Poniechaj" translation currently, as all Polish-language software has
> standardized on Anuluj. 

It's true that currently Mac users don't have an option to use "poniechaj".
The fork could bring "anuluj" back. Moreover one could have terms like
"copy" translated as "kopiuj" instead of "skopiuj" - strictly in accordance with Windows. 
The other fork would have "zaniechaj". I get impression that you're
against it. Could you tell us why?


> And "NSLW" uses this only as an excuse, since his
> translation is different from that used by Apple (Apple: Poniechaj, NSLW:
> Zaniechaj). He's innovative that way.

Please don't insinuate anything and in this case that I use something as excuse.
This creates hostile environment in which participants are disrespected based on 
their point of view and I would like every participant here to be respected.

It's true that Apple used "poniechaj" instead of "zaniechaj". Please read
https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=404286#c3
as I answered it before.


> Every piece of software localized in Polish or written originally in Polish
> uses Cancel = Anuluj. Games use it (including ones from Polish studios),
> government software and web services use it, desktop software uses it,
> mobile software uses it. Only KDE stands out, due to one obstinate
> translator.

You stated a fact. The change is unpopular but it has to start somewhere, 
and paid software is not the best origin for it. Please read
https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=404286#c9
as I answered you that before.


> (In reply to NSLW from comment #52)

> I am well aware, and that makes the bug you intentionally created even
> worse. For 7 years you've left "Cancel" = "Anuluj" alone, and then out of a
> sudden you mistranslated it as "Zaniechaj". Nothing's changed, you weren't
> the original translator of KDE, you should've left it as you've found it,
> and as everyone was familiar with.

"Zaniechaj/Poniechaj" is not a bug. It's alternative translation for "cancel",
and that's confirmed by linguist and by use in MacOS. Please read the discussion
above and try to relate to some threads because I've got impression
that this paragraph is shallowing the issue here.


> The years you've spent with the project mean that you should have known
> better and should have made appropriate consultations before making such
> UX-breaking change for no good reason and out of a sudden.
>
> What does it take for KDE Project to take this matter
> seriously? A petition? Letter writing campaign? Finding a translator, who
> will pledge to do translations once NSLW is prevented from breaking them?

First, you have the right to voice your opinion and get heard in this bug.
By you saying that KDE is not taking matter seriously I get impression that you're 
trying to manipulate audience here. Please stop doing it because emotion it
raises make it difficult to make rational picks.

Second, please stop demanding. KDE is not in position to hire some top-notch talents, from
which you can expect some qualities. It's voluntary project. KDE doesn't get any money
from it, although work gets done and everybody can use it free of charge.


As a general remark, please stop judging me as a person or insinuate anything by saying:
1) [he] "uses this only as an excuse"
2) "he's innovative that way"
3) [he the] "obstinate translator"
4) "intentional action of" [he]
5) "He will clearly not fix it"
6) [he is] "breaking them"
You did so in your previous post as well.
I get impression that I'm heavily demonized and discredited as a person for my point of view.
I feel hurt because I expected everyone to be respected regardless of point of view.

(In reply to Kamil Piwowarski from comment #58)
> Unfortunately there is still one thing that made me irritated, broke my
> workflow and ruin hard earned consistency. When I am using any Java/GKT3/Qt
> (non-KDE)/Electron/Wine/Android app next to KDE app I am very confused,
> because of this #BROKEN# translation. 

I presume, that you've seen "zaniechaj" for the first time and thought of it as broken.
Did you feel confused because you know the word but expected it to not be in app 
you were using?

> Please fix that bug. Firstly - because almost no one are using „Zaniechaj”
> as „Cancel” and almost no one know what does it mean in computer systems.
> Secondly - it is against one of the KDE goal which is consistency.
> 
> Thanks


By saying "[...] almost no one are using zaniechaj [...]" did you mean that MacOS used
"poniechaj" but it doesn't count because no one uses "zaniechaj" in translation now?

By reading KDE goal of consistency, I get that it's about design and features of KDE 
apps to be implemented consistently across KDE. Do you think it should also include
translation because no matter the translation to be good or bad, the most important is
that they are not different than on other OS's?

Hi Luigi,

What do we need to do rollback the commit (+ https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=415209) ?

Regards

(In reply to ergo-proxy from comment #61)
> Hi Luigi,
> 
> What do we need to do rollback the commit (+
> https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=415209) ?

Other changes happened in the meantime, so the commit can't be simply reverted. Someone should go over all Polish translation files (for the trunk/l10n-kf5 branch and the branches/stable/l10n-kf5 branch at least), changes the translations and then send the translations to someone who can commit them.

As I mentioned many times, this is the "easy" part, because forcibly committing them without the agreement of the (only) current Polish translator would probably lead to a a) commit/revert war b) a resignation, without translators left. It would be nice if the two point above could be addressed as well (a) is waiting on the Community Working Group, b) requires new stable volunteers).

I just found this bug report, I have reported a similar bug in KDE Connect:
https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=415897

My main concern was with "Presentation remote" which was translated in such an old fashioned way, that I had no idea what it was, but I also mentioned the Cancel / Anuluj / Zaniechaj error. Now I see that the problem lies with a translator, who did this on purpose.

*** Bug 415897 has been marked as a duplicate of this bug. ***

Created attachment 127552 [details]
Restore 'Anuluj' in place of 'Zaniechaj'.

Please find attached patch that reverts 'Cancel' translation form 'Zaniechaj' to 'Anuluj'.

If I can contact directly with person who has a svn commit rights, please let me know.

When it will be fixed? I've installed Majnaro KDE for my family. They aren't technical people and it's difficult for them to distinguish what the „Zaniechaj” is for. They were using Windows and have Android on their phones. They recognize easily „Anuluj” and the destination (cancelling) of that button but there are problems with recognizing what action will be done when they press „Zaniechaj”.

Closing as the translation in question has been changed.

Thank you!

This took so long I believe it when I see it ;). Can't wait.

thank You