Bug 399972 - Suggestion on using Icons-only task manager for Breeze workspace theme's default layout
Summary: Suggestion on using Icons-only task manager for Breeze workspace theme's defa...
Status: RESOLVED MOVED
Alias: None
Product: plasmashell
Classification: Plasma
Component: Global Theme packages (show other bugs)
Version: 5.13.5
Platform: Other Linux
: NOR wishlist
Target Milestone: 1.0
Assignee: Plasma Bugs List
URL: https://phabricator.kde.org/T12441
Keywords:
Depends on:
Blocks:
 
Reported: 2018-10-18 07:58 UTC by Tyson Tan
Modified: 2020-01-03 15:00 UTC (History)
5 users (show)

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Description Tyson Tan 2018-10-18 07:58:58 UTC
SUMMARY
Right now Breeze (Workspace Theme)'s default layout uses a traditional task manager.

When I choose "Breeze" from
>> System Settings >> Appearance (section) >> Workspace Theme >> Left column >> Look And Feel >>
With this checked:
[X] Use Desktop Layout from theme

The Breeze layout I get has a traditional task manager. I suppose it means this is the default for Breeze (workspace theme)?

I think traditional task manager is really outdated these days, it makes organizing workspace less convenient. Icons-only task manager behaves like Windows 7/8/10/macOS and I suggest we consider default to that instead.

Thank you!
Comment 1 Matej Mrenica 2018-10-18 18:24:38 UTC
I think this is a matter of personal preference, that's why users can change it if they want to.
Comment 2 Nate Graham 2018-10-18 20:38:56 UTC
Full disclosure: I use an icons-only task manager myself.

Let's consider the differences:

The Traditional task manager (TTM) organizes things on the basis of windows (well, tasks, but for the most part tasks are windows) and is optimized for switching between tasks/windows. As long as buttons don't become grouped (which can be turned off), switching between many windows using the mouse can be quite fast. Launching new apps is a secondary consideration, and is subject to a sub-optimal UI that people complain about: Bug 390817. With a TTM, launching new apps is typically done via a launcher menu like Kickoff or Kicker; you wouldn't pin 15 apps to your TTM, because there would be hardly any room left for more than a few task buttons.

The Icons-only task manager (IOTM) organizes things on the basis of apps, and only secondarily and poorly for apps that have multiple windows. IOTMs are much easier than TTMs for launching apps because of the larger click targets. IOTMs can hold more launchable apps without losing functionality (with TTMs, pinned apps reduce the space available for task buttons), and they scale better when many apps or windows are open (with TTMs, the task buttons become tiny and useless). FINALLY, IOTMs are more visually attractive since they can be used to hold a large number of pretty app icons. However switching between single instances of single-window apps is slower; switching between multiple instances of apps or multiple windows of the same app is *much* slower due to the grouping; other switching methods such as alt-tab or alt-f10 make more sense.

In a sense, one's personal preference depends very much on whether or not one thinks in terms of  apps or windows. People who think in terms of apps will probably prefer the IOTM, while people who prefer windows will prefer the TTM. I have no idea what that breakdown is, though it's revealing that all of our major competitors (macOS, Windows 7+, Unity, GNOME in Ubuntu 18.04+, ElementaryOS) use an IOTM/Dock style widget instead of a TTM. Also, all mobile OSs use icon-based launcher/switchers that are much more like an IOTM than a TTM.

The best implementation for an IOTM on the desktop is in a vertical panel that's double the width of the TTM's default height (basically, it would be what Unity and Ubuntu 18.04's GNOME do). This allows for a large assortment of app launchers to be shipped by default, and they can all be pretty and show off our nice icon design. However, a vertical panel complicates clock display; See Bug 365995 and Bug 381551. Those should be fixed.

Personally I would be fine switching to an IOTM by default, but only if we put it on a vertical panel and populate it by default with a reasonable assortment of KDE apps (if available): System Settings, Discover, Dolphin, Falkon, KMail, Kate, Konsole, Gwenview, Okular (Distros would of course override this as required, e.g. Falkon -> Firefox, add LibreOffice, add VLC, etc). Done this way, I think it would be really nice, and provide greater discoverability and speed of access for our awesome apps. It would also just look *pretty*, which matters and helps attract and retain users from an emotional angle.

I'll leave this open to gather more comments, but some people don't like discussing design matters on Bugzilla. If folks complain, we can move this to a Phabricator task.
Comment 3 Michał Dybczak 2019-03-18 14:00:25 UTC
I'm in favor of the icon task manager.

I guess we need to launch a pool or gather some data because this is indeed a matter of personal taste although... modern systems ship with icon based task manager and people are used to it. I don't see much of the outcry when windows switched to icon task manager. People adjusted to it pretty easily.

Also, at the moment old style of task managers are mostly on more simplistic or old looking DEs, so having it as default for Plasma looks odd, so I would say it's time to move on.

Of course, some wouldn't like it... but many don't like the current state either and personally look at it as a flaw. When I present the Plasma to a Linux newbie I quickly show that there is the icon task manager so they wouldn't have the impression that the system is not modern enough.

I think most users are fine with icons, only those who launch many instances of the same program may feel different but those are usually specialists and also lower in numbers.
Comment 4 Nate Graham 2019-03-18 14:24:17 UTC
Yes I have also had the experience of helping new users set up Plasma and their very first question is how they have an icons-only task manager (not in those words, of course).

Thankfully, switching to or from the IOTM is really really easy, but defaults are powerful. :)
Comment 5 Michał Dybczak 2019-03-18 18:50:13 UTC
I think that it would be a good idea to do some research online, meaning: check out some recent Plasma PERSONALISED (so not default) desktop screenshots and see how often people have icon task manager on it.

My feeling is that I see mostly icons, but I might be wrong. Actually the same idea I was going to propose on another topic, the desktop toolbox. Somehow it's always gone from personalized screens... ;) but that's a sideline topic that I will eventually join.
Comment 6 David Edmundson 2019-03-18 20:23:58 UTC
There is (very slow) movement to get opt-in telemetry from plasma users.

This will be much better than arbitrary guesswork, or skewed results from the sort of people who share screenshots, rather than the user base I care most about of office workers.
Comment 7 Michał Dybczak 2019-03-18 21:07:33 UTC
Telemetry could be an interesting thing although this will surely cause some sh%$storm in the community which is oversensitive about it.

As to office works, I disagree. I may be wrong but the majority of office workers I met is using computers on the very basic level (only what they have to do and nothing more) and what you present them, they use it, meaning: they are NOT ACTIVELY ADJUSTING SYSTEM TO THEIR WORK, so they are not the best group to model defaults on, because they accept defaults as they are. In fact, majority office workers use windows 7 or windows 10 so it would indicate icon task manager will invoke familiarity.

Many Linux users (or often Gnome users) point "windowsy" look of Plasma as a fault, but I think windows general desktop principle is very productive and what most people are used to. Plasma can be anything and that is the beauty of it, but its default look resembling windows is a good thing: for users who are transforming from windows and for office or any business users alike.
Comment 8 Nate Graham 2019-03-18 22:01:21 UTC
Just as a data point, the vast majority of office workers are using boxes with Windows (mostly) or macOS (in academia, design, advertising, some development, upper management), both of which use the equivalent of an Icons-Only Task Manager by default: Windows since version 7 one decade ago, and macOS since version 10.0 two decades ago.
Comment 9 David Edmundson 2019-03-18 22:15:05 UTC
I'm not claiming office users don't prefer a dock, I'm claiming office workers don't share screenshots of their desktops on the internet.
Comment 10 Nate Graham 2019-03-18 22:22:42 UTC
I agree that the frequency with which people customize their setups to use an IOTM is not a useful metric. We could use that same data for example to propose a return to the traditional task manager if we did ship an IOTM by default.

However, I think the question is easier to answer than all that. The fact that the two largest and most commonly-used commercial operating systems have shipped an IOTM equivalent by default for more than a decade is a pretty good indicator that it's not a fatal flaw at least. Popularity doesn't necessarily indicate quality, but it usually does indicate the lack of its inverse. Microsoft and Apple have basically done our user acceptance testing for us.

Also, every smartphone uses some kind of IOTM for its launcher. So the result are already in: it's just fine. We know it's not bad.

"This proposed alternative is known not to be bad" is a minimum standard of course, and not what we would want to base the whole decision on. :) But I think it's a useful starting point for the discussion: we already know that the sky wouldn't fall if we shipped an IOTM by default.
Comment 11 Michał Dybczak 2019-03-19 06:59:59 UTC
My dad ability to use computers is very low and yet the idea to use icon based task manager on a panel was accepted by him immediately without any further problems. He struggles with tabs, floating windows, overlays, and many basic things but icon task manager was always clear to him on any computer.

So a) icon task manager is standard on most used systems, b) it's intuitive for new or non-tech users.
Comment 12 David Edmundson 2020-01-03 13:22:20 UTC
I don't think this is useful to keep open in bugzilla as it does not represent an actionable bug report, only a wishlist.

@Nate has made a follow up task on phabricator T12441. Closing this.