Version: 1.3.5 (using KDE KDE 3.4.92) Installed from: Gentoo Packages When Amarok crashes, it makes a email message with a backtrace and asks me to send it. That's wrong behavior in my opinion. No program should touch my mail like that. KDE already has a crash agent with the possibility of filing a bug with a backtrace. I know that the Amarok developers like to to reinvent things already in KDE, but this is just too much. I understand that you want bug reports and contact with your users, but I haven't got the patience to run 10 identical backtraces a day. There should at the very least be an option to turn this function off! I'm filing this as a bug rather than a wish because I think it's just that serious.
Sorry, won't happen. The automatic crash report function is very valuable to us. And hey, you're the first one to complain. Most people are glad to help debug the application.
Hey, I'm also trying to help here! I often file reports and try to figure out what's going on. But I like to do it in my own time, not when Amarok wants to. Of course, every time I'm met with a WONTFIX or "too bad", I'm a little less enthusiastic. The thing that's wrong here is that you're reinventing KDE's crash agent and forcing a CPU heavy backtrace on me. And then you invoke my mail agent. This is all quite unique behavior seen nowhere else in KDE.
I always find it annoying because, actually, I don't use the email program -- I do everything through webmail (but I haven't found a way to get kde to use gmail as my chosen mail program yet). So when amaroK crashes, it starts up kmail which I don't use and haven't configured properly. So there are at least two of us who are complaining. What's wrong with the builtin crash reporting, anyway? (She asks naively ...)
To be honest, this annoys me as well -- it causes several minutes of swapping every time, and I hate, hate, *hate* swapping, worse than even QToolTip -- and then it opens a blank Opera window, which I get to close. I'd prefer it to pop up a dialog with a big 'Send Backtrace' button, and only get the backtrace *after* it is clicked. (I doubt this would reduce the number of backtraces people send -- 'Send' in the mail client is a single click, as this would be.) But, talking is easy. Perhaps one day I'll get sufficiently annoyed to actually code it.
Mary Ellen Foster, one problem of the builtin crash reporting, is that the backtraces were often worse than gdb's. We need good backtraces, and the stacks for all threads, as it usually can be very usefull while debugging amaroK. The main reason, though, is that the automatic crash report is much easier to the general user: just add a comment and click on send. Or even, just click on send, it can be of some help anyway. We know gdb is "a bit" cpu intensive while getting the backtraces, we know lauching the default mail client is something some users wouldn't like very much, but that was our option anyway, and I don't think we regret at all. The mail system makes us receive MUCH more backtraces, some of them very usefull. I've fixed MANY crashes only with those mails, and got valuable information that helped on debugging bugs found here on bugs.kde.org or reported on the channel or maillist. amaroK is a very complex application, and without the mails, it would be much harder to debug. So, after all, these system was something very positive. I'm really sad you don't like it, but if it's the price for faster, better and easier debugging, I'm paying this. The system can be improved though, we'll see what we can do.
>We need good backtraces, and the stacks for all threads Then you should enhance the general KDE crash agent, so that all programs could benefit. This is basically not-invented-here-syndrome on your part. >The main reason, though, is that the automatic crash report is much easier to >the general user: The general user probably doesn't understand what the mail is about. Nor does he have a KDE with debug enabled or the "enable crash agent" setting enabled -- a setting which you choose to ignore. I don't see how this gives you usable information from general users. More advanced users are probably capable of making a backtrace, or at least manually using a tool you would provide. But the main thing wrong is still that you're trying to force me to report a bug. That's a no-no in my opinion. I'm sure the OSS world would cry out if Microsoft did what you're doing. I'm questioning, as I have before, whether Amarok belongs in KDE proper.
On Thursday 03 November 2005 22:45, Niels wrote: > I'm questioning, as I have before, whether Amarok belongs in KDE proper. I'm questioning, as I have before, whether we have to endure your ramblings.
No problem, I'll simply stop posting. I'll stop trying to think of ways to improve Amarok. I'll stop spending time writing about it. I'll stop posting bugs, wishes or backtraces. The general attitude of Amarok developers (like in bug #115483) isn't too good in my opinion, but now that you're directly telling me to fuck off, that's what I'll do.
It's obviously annoying for some people, but for anyone else that has complained, I don't think it has risen to the level of disgust and contempt that you show it in your very first post. Based on the hyperbole you used in your initial post, it seems you came here to pick a fight, and now you act surprised when you find you got one. We know some users are bothered about it, but we know more users are bothered by general crashiness, which this crash handler has been very helpful at reducing. The project coders have discussed the trade-off and have made a decision to annoy a few users in the hope of making the overall app better. You have an opinion that you feel strongly about, but that doesn't make you right. And 2 other factual corrections: 1) amaroK is not part of KDE, it is part of KDE-extragear, very different things, and 2) Microsoft does invoke an automatic crash handler and tries to phone home the info. At least amaroK let's you see what is being sent.
My apologies if I've offended anyone. I don't think I'm expressing disgust and contempt, or in fact any hyperbole at all. I'm very annoyed about the mail thing, and that's what I'm trying to express. I did not come here to pick a fight, and I find the accusation absurd. I use Amarok, and care enough about it to spend time writing to the developers about my point of view wrt. certain features. Why would I want a fight? I want an honest answer, if anything. On the other hand, it seems that some developers feel very attacked by suggestions and wishes. It's a great thing that we users can speak directly to you developers, and both parties should use this possibility for good, not for evil. >amaroK is not part of KDE, it is part of KDE-extragear, very different things True. >Microsoft does invoke an automatic crash handler and tries to phone home the >info. At least amaroK let's you see what is being sent. I'll write them a rude letter immediately -- dang, bugs.microsoft.org is down...
I thought you were going to stop posting :(
I don't want to continue a discussion that will go nowhere but ... I'm sure you didn't come here to pick a fight, but your use of language is rather aggressive, and that kind of aggressive stance right off the bat will make people defensive. My last comment on the matter will be with your request for an honest answer. I don't think Mark's first answer could be more honest, you just didn't like it.