Bug 509719 - With driverless printer double sided option is not available
Summary: With driverless printer double sided option is not available
Status: RESOLVED WORKSFORME
Alias: None
Product: systemsettings
Classification: Applications
Component: kcm_printer_manager (other bugs)
Version First Reported In: 6.4.4
Platform: Fedora RPMs Linux
: NOR normal
Target Milestone: ---
Assignee: Plasma Bugs List
URL:
Keywords:
Depends on:
Blocks:
 
Reported: 2025-09-20 15:35 UTC by rob.dyck
Modified: 2025-10-15 16:33 UTC (History)
4 users (show)

See Also:
Latest Commit:
Version Fixed/Implemented In:
Sentry Crash Report:


Attachments
My printers installation (72.57 KB, image/png)
2025-09-20 15:35 UTC, rob.dyck
Details
As requested, printer media dialog. (73.31 KB, image/png)
2025-10-10 14:04 UTC, rob.dyck
Details
Kate printer dialog on kde install ( no print queue setup ) (96.06 KB, image/png)
2025-10-10 14:58 UTC, rob.dyck
Details
add printer (179.51 KB, image/png)
2025-10-10 15:49 UTC, rob.dyck
Details
Add printer available options (124.08 KB, image/png)
2025-10-10 15:52 UTC, rob.dyck
Details
Cups add printer options (123.98 KB, image/png)
2025-10-10 15:54 UTC, rob.dyck
Details
Add Printer Network/IPP (241.00 KB, image/png)
2025-10-10 16:08 UTC, Mike
Details
Adding printer queue using system settings. (121.55 KB, image/png)
2025-10-10 16:12 UTC, rob.dyck
Details
Driverless (135.04 KB, image/png)
2025-10-10 17:58 UTC, rob.dyck
Details
with driver (128.93 KB, image/png)
2025-10-10 17:59 UTC, rob.dyck
Details

Note You need to log in before you can comment on or make changes to this bug.
Description rob.dyck 2025-09-20 15:35:41 UTC
Created attachment 185117 [details]
My printers installation

SUMMARY
I learned that my printer can be installed as driverless. I deleted the instance that uses a driver and created a driverless instance. Although I know that this printer supports duplex printing none of KDE apps I have tried will allow me to choose duplex.

STEPS TO REPRODUCE
1. Install printer with the driverless option
2. Choose a KDE app and an appropriatte file
3. Open the app's print option
4. Expand the the printers options and look for double sided printing
5. Try to click on one of the double sided options

OBSERVED RESULT
The double sided options are grey and cannot be selected.

EXPECTED RESULT
I should be able to choose one of the double sided options.

SOFTWARE/OS VERSIONS
Operating System: Fedora Linux 42
KDE Plasma Version: 6.4.4
KDE Frameworks Version: 6.17.0
Qt Version: 6.9.2
Kernel Version: 6.16.7-200.fc42.x86_64 (64-bit)
Graphics Platform: Wayland
Processors: 8 × Intel® Core™ i7-6700 CPU @ 3.40GHz
Memory: 32 GiB of RAM (31.2 GiB usable)
Graphics Processor: Intel® HD Graphics 530
Manufacturer: LENOVO
Product Name: 10MLS0A400
System Version: ThinkCentre M910s

ADDITIONAL INFORMATION
If I use a non-kde app such as Libre writer the duplex option is available.
The printer using the driverless installation is actually able to print double sided.

"lp -d HP_LaserJet_MFP_M232-M237 -o sides=two-sided-long-edge my-file" confirms that double sided printing works.

For further testing added the driver option back on an extra instance of the printer. I confirmed that the duplex option is available when using the driver instance.
Comment 1 Mike 2025-09-22 11:46:10 UTC
If another app prints double-sided just fine with the driverless option, then this sounds like an app problem, not print manager.  If the app is using the standard Qt print dialog apis and it's all apps using this capability, then it's possible that it could be a Qt print dialog problem.

I checked with Kate and double-side with the IPP everywhere (driverless) is available and working with a test printer I have (HP Envy).  Which apps have you tried with?

Either way, this should probably be closed and re-classified.
Comment 2 rob.dyck 2025-09-22 14:18:09 UTC
I checked Chrome and Firefox. Both dialogs show that double sided is available when using the driverless printer. Wireshark seems to use the native dialog and duplex is not available for the driverless instance.
Comment 3 rob.dyck 2025-09-22 15:15:06 UTC
I checked Chrome and Firefox. Both dialogs show that double sided is available when using the driverless printer. Wireshark seems to use the native dialog and duplex is not available for the driverless instance.
Comment 4 Bug Janitor Service 2025-10-07 03:46:59 UTC
🐛🧹 ⚠️ This bug has been in NEEDSINFO status with no change for at least 15 days. Please provide the requested information, then set the bug status to REPORTED. If there is no change for at least 30 days, it will be automatically closed as RESOLVED WORKSFORME.

For more information about our bug triaging procedures, please read https://community.kde.org/Guidelines_and_HOWTOs/Bug_triaging.

Thank you for helping us make KDE software even better for everyone!
Comment 5 TraceyC 2025-10-09 19:35:25 UTC
Can you try the print dialog with Kate? Does that show the double-sided option or not?

Also, can you share a screenshot of 
System Settings - Printers -your printer (driverless) - Configure - Media Settings

Thanks
Comment 6 rob.dyck 2025-10-10 14:04:52 UTC
Created attachment 185647 [details]
As requested, printer media dialog.

This was taken from my laptop. My desktop computer has just had Fedora 43 Beta installed and I haven't created a printer queue.
Comment 7 Mike 2025-10-10 14:20:25 UTC
Yeah, that looks right (2-sided Printing) from the generated PPD.  Per TraceyC, check print options in Kate and should show there as well. 

Open Kate then open any file
Hit Ctrl+P
Choose "Options>>" then the "Options" tab
Comment 8 rob.dyck 2025-10-10 14:30:22 UTC
Kate thinks that double sided printing is not available just like other kde/qt apps. Wireshark which I believe is qt based has the same problem.

I have just completed a new install of Fedora 43 Beta on my desktop computer and I have not done any printer configuration. The screenshot (System Settings - Printers -your printer (driverless) - Configure - Media Settings) was taken from my laptop. I had never looked at that setting before. Indeed there is setting for double sided printing and it was set to off. If I set it to long edge the problem still exists. I don't use a printer server. The printer was detected on the network. I created a queue for it in CUPS.

On my new install on my desktop computer CUPS says I have no printers. The same with "System Settings - Printers -your printer (driverless) - Configure - Media Settings". The apps however see the printer and I can print. The apps think that double sided printing is not available.
Comment 9 Mike 2025-10-10 14:49:31 UTC
Hmm, it almost sounds like Qt printing is confused by the name difference (2-sided vs. double-sided), IDK.

Here would be something interesting to know:
Go the machine that has no print queues set up.  Do not set up any print queues.  Open Kate, the printer should still be discovered, it might have a cryptic name, and then check options.
Comment 10 rob.dyck 2025-10-10 14:58:18 UTC
Created attachment 185650 [details]
Kate printer dialog on kde install ( no print queue setup )
Comment 11 Mike 2025-10-10 15:03:54 UTC
Again, interesting, it's finding the option.  Try one more thing:

Use Plasma system settings print manager to add the print queue for this printer.  When the driver options appear, select "IPP Everywhere" , continue, save, etc.

Then, let's see what Kate says under options.
Comment 12 rob.dyck 2025-10-10 15:49:27 UTC
Created attachment 185653 [details]
add printer
Comment 13 Mike 2025-10-10 15:52:02 UTC
Looks like you've got it plugged in with USB and using wifi.  Choose one of the network options and it should show you an "IPP Everywhere" driver option, since it's finding this obviously an IPP-capable printer.
Comment 14 rob.dyck 2025-10-10 15:52:50 UTC
Created attachment 185654 [details]
Add printer available options

The option ipp everywhere doesn't appear. I believe choosing ipp or ipps would amount to the same thing. If I look at my laptop it appears that protocol ipp everywhere was chosen.
Comment 15 rob.dyck 2025-10-10 15:54:08 UTC
Created attachment 185655 [details]
Cups add printer options

Cups doesn't mention ipp everywhere either.
Comment 16 Mike 2025-10-10 15:57:24 UTC
You haven't choosen the printer yet.  IPP Everywhere is a driver option that will only show after the printer is selected and it is an IPP-capable printer, so unplug the USB or just don't choose the USB (direct connect) option.
Comment 17 rob.dyck 2025-10-10 15:59:45 UTC
(In reply to Mike from comment #13)
> Looks like you've got it plugged in with USB and using wifi.  Choose one of
> the network options and it should show you an "IPP Everywhere" driver
> option, since it's finding this obviously an IPP-capable printer.

It doesn't seem to make a difference whether I amtrying to configure the usb instance or the network instance ( wired )
Comment 18 Mike 2025-10-10 16:02:56 UTC
okay, thx for trying all that.  Nothing I can conclusively say about it, feels like QT printing issue, but it could also be CUPS not creating the option properly from the PPD.

I have one thing to check here, I have a printer that supports both USB and Wifi and double-sided.
Comment 19 Mike 2025-10-10 16:08:34 UTC
Created attachment 185657 [details]
Add Printer Network/IPP

Here's what mine looks like.  You're saying you do not see this when you select any of the network options when adding the printer?
Comment 20 rob.dyck 2025-10-10 16:12:08 UTC
Created attachment 185658 [details]
Adding printer queue using system settings.

Going through the motions of actually creating a printer queue using system settings rather than CUPS admin. The automatically generated description is wrong. I had chosen the network instance.
Comment 21 rob.dyck 2025-10-10 16:19:25 UTC
When I clicked on add it responded with invalid option. It didn't say which option was invalid.
Comment 22 rob.dyck 2025-10-10 16:31:59 UTC
(In reply to Mike from comment #18)
> okay, thx for trying all that.  Nothing I can conclusively say about it,
> feels like QT printing issue, but it could also be CUPS not creating the
> option properly from the PPD.
> 
> I have one thing to check here, I have a printer that supports both USB and
> Wifi and double-sided.

This goes back to the original report. Driverless doesn't use a PPD. On my desktop computer ( before the beta install ) I created two instances/queues of the USB printer. One was driverless and other was with PPD. When choosing the driverless printer in an app the double sided option was not available.. I believe I read somewhere that ipp everywhere protocol had been adapted to work over USB.
Comment 23 rob.dyck 2025-10-10 16:47:11 UTC
On the one hand it seems like a problem with the printer's internal driver but non-qt apps work for double sided printing. If a PPD is provided it works fine with qt. One the other hand it seems like a qt problem.
Comment 24 Mike 2025-10-10 17:08:27 UTC
yeah, that queue name with dashes looks questionable (you could remove those for testing), I'm thinking they should be underscores, I'll check that.

The fact that the printer description is "USB" and HPLIP, shows that you selected the direct USB connection, so I'm not sure what you're doing there.  

FWIW, IPP over USB is available but only if you have installed the IPP-USB package and not all printers that support IPP (over a network) actually support ipp usb, for example, my HP Envy.

FYI, "driverless" still uses a PPD, just one that CUPS generates based on device capabilities.

That said, I agree, I think this is a QT Printing System issue.  Thx again for the efforts.
Comment 25 Mike 2025-10-10 17:11:34 UTC
Oh, one more thing, I usually ask for this very early on, but could you provide the output with your printer connected both ways:

lpinfo -v

You will have to elevate privileges  to run that.
Comment 26 rob.dyck 2025-10-10 17:29:33 UTC
(In reply to Mike from comment #25)
> Oh, one more thing, I usually ask for this very early on, but could you
> provide the output with your printer connected both ways:
> 
> lpinfo -v
> 
> You will have to elevate privileges  to run that.

lpinfo -v
network beh
file cups-brf:/
serial serial:/dev/ttyS0?baud=115200
serial serial:/dev/ttyS4?baud=115200
network lpd
network ipps
network ipp
network socket
network https
network http
direct usb://HP/LaserJet%20MFP%20M232-M237?serial=VNG3M19635
direct hp:/usb/HP_LaserJet_MFP_M232-M237?serial=VNG3M19635
network smb
direct hpfax
network dnssd://HP%20LaserJet%20MFP%20M234dw%20(B8A431)._ipp._tcp.local/?uuid=0efa3afd-417b-46f6-a5db-4e16abd17ac6
network socket://192.168.1.71
network ipp://HP%20LaserJet%20MFP%20M234dw%20(B8A431)%20(USB)._ipp._tcp.local/
network ipps://HP%20LaserJet%20MFP%20M234dw%20(B8A431)._ipps._tcp.local/
Comment 27 rob.dyck 2025-10-10 17:56:20 UTC
As I mentioned when I tried adding a printer using system settins it complained about an invalid option. I had only clicked options it had provided.

Using CUPS I added two queues for the USB printer ( Cups called it local ). One was driverless and the other was hpcups 3.25.6. To my surprise both showed the double sided option in Kate. On my old OS when I purchased this printer I added a queue for it not realizing I was adding a driverless printer. Did I get something wrong? I now know a lot more about adding printers.

For reference I will submit screen shots of the two instances.
Comment 28 rob.dyck 2025-10-10 17:58:34 UTC
Created attachment 185663 [details]
Driverless
Comment 29 rob.dyck 2025-10-10 17:59:10 UTC
Created attachment 185664 [details]
with driver
Comment 30 Mike 2025-10-10 18:24:17 UTC
(In reply to rob.dyck from comment #27)
> As I mentioned when I tried adding a printer using system settins it
> complained about an invalid option. I had only clicked options it had
> provided.

Yeah, the invalid option error from CUPS is probably a driver mis-match or it's attempting to create a PPD for a driverless selection and for whatever reason, was unable to determine or reconcile one or more printer options.  I've also seen this error occur when attempting to configure a printer for IPP that is not IPP-capable (clearly,  yours is).

> 
> Using CUPS I added two queues for the USB printer ( Cups called it local ).
> One was driverless and the other was hpcups 3.25.6. To my surprise both
> showed the double sided option in Kate. On my old OS when I purchased this
> printer I added a queue for it not realizing I was adding a driverless
> printer. Did I get something wrong? I now know a lot more about adding
> printers.

lol, yeah probably more than you want to know.

I'll say I'm kind of lost with the time-sequence with a laptop, a desktop, an old OS and new OS, this is or that's not working, it's hard for me to follow.  Are you saying that you now have a working config for the printer and that you had to use the CUPS web-gui to configure?

> 
> For reference I will submit screen shots of the two instances.

FWIW, the lpinfo output for your printer, both directly connected and discovered via IPP on the network, looks perfectly normal.
Comment 31 rob.dyck 2025-10-10 18:36:22 UTC
(In reply to Mike from comment #30)
> (In reply to rob.dyck from comment #27)
> > As I mentioned when I tried adding a printer using system settins it
> > complained about an invalid option. I had only clicked options it had
> > provided.
> 
> Yeah, the invalid option error from CUPS is probably a driver mis-match or
> it's attempting to create a PPD for a driverless selection and for whatever
> reason, was unable to determine or reconcile one or more printer options. 
> I've also seen this error occur when attempting to configure a printer for
> IPP that is not IPP-capable (clearly,  yours is).
> 
> > 
> > Using CUPS I added two queues for the USB printer ( Cups called it local ).
> > One was driverless and the other was hpcups 3.25.6. To my surprise both
> > showed the double sided option in Kate. On my old OS when I purchased this
> > printer I added a queue for it not realizing I was adding a driverless
> > printer. Did I get something wrong? I now know a lot more about adding
> > printers.
> 
> lol, yeah probably more than you want to know.
> 
> I'll say I'm kind of lost with the time-sequence with a laptop, a desktop,
> an old OS and new OS, this is or that's not working, it's hard for me to
> follow.  Are you saying that you now have a working config for the printer
> and that you had to use the CUPS web-gui to configure?
> 
> > 
> > For reference I will submit screen shots of the two instances.
> 
> FWIW, the lpinfo output for your printer, both directly connected and
> discovered via IPP on the network, looks perfectly normal.

My new OS on the desktop now has two instanes of the printer, one of which is driverless. Kate is happy with either one when it comes to double sided printing. The old OS , F42 on the desktop is history. The laptop, still F42, still has the problem ( ipp everywhere ).
Comment 32 Mike 2025-10-10 18:45:30 UTC
Hmm, I guess what is CUPS version on both Fedora 42 and 43?  I'm assuming 43 has CUPS v2.4.14.
Comment 33 rob.dyck 2025-10-10 19:04:58 UTC
(In reply to Mike from comment #32)
> Hmm, I guess what is CUPS version on both Fedora 42 and 43?  I'm assuming 43
> has CUPS v2.4.14.

Both are 2.4.14-2. The -2 possibly a Fedora version number, patch?
Comment 34 Mike 2025-10-10 19:31:16 UTC
(In reply to rob.dyck from comment #33)
> (In reply to Mike from comment #32)
> > Hmm, I guess what is CUPS version on both Fedora 42 and 43?  I'm assuming 43
> > has CUPS v2.4.14.
> 
> Both are 2.4.14-2. The -2 possibly a Fedora version number, patch?

Yeah, it's a Fedora patch or build #.  

I've got a note-to-self to check the printer name as provided by CUPS just in case, but I think I was wrong blaming Qt here.  I think CUPS, for some reason, failed to set the PPD option properly when choosing IPP Everywhere (driverless) from print manager.  I'm pretty sure we're calling the same functions as the CUPS web gui (SaveOrModifyPrinter) and I can't reproduce this with my hardware.

Is it fair to say that you have a solution and we can close this?
Comment 35 Mike 2025-10-10 19:42:52 UTC
Ha, first thing I tried and I found the issue causing the "Invalid Argument".  First off, dashes in printer names (queue name) are fine, spaces  are not allowed.

So, with print manager, I set up an print queue, USB direct connect, took the default ppd driver, saved.  Kate shows double-sided just fine, prints, all works good.

Now, go back to print manager, change the printer driver and choose IPP Everywhere, then Apply.  This is the fail for invalid argument.  Technically, it should fail, because CUPS can't make an IPP connection to that printer configured with the USB direct connect address (ipps://usb/ENVY.....).  So, that's actually legit, it's just the message is cryptic and not complete.

Secondly, we should probably have a better validation for the IPP Everywhere option showing on the driver select dialog.
Comment 36 rob.dyck 2025-10-10 21:59:13 UTC
I turned my attention to the laptop. When I open an app's print dialog, I don't pay much attention to the printer name because I only have one printer configured. If I pull down the list apparently there are two printers. The top printer is actually a braille printer. Double sided printing is probably meaningless. It is one of the discovered printers but I haven't created a queue  for it. I don't know how to remove from the app print dialog.

So my work around is to pull down the list and select the second printer which by the way is an ipp anywhere printer. Double sided printing is then an available option.

I think I know now why I have been having trouble with. When you create a queue for one of your discovered printer, after you choose your driver and click add you go to a new page where you are asked to set defaults for the printer. The term default here is misleading. If you leave the so called default for double sided printing as off the option will not appear in your app's print dialog. Off would seem to be a reasonable default but in fact it disables double side printing.
Comment 37 Mike 2025-10-10 22:44:10 UTC
Very interesting and I learned something there, thx.  So, I never use the CUPS web gui but I know the "defaults" page you're referring to.

FYI, the discovered printers are defined by cups backends that you have installed.  So you probably have a braille backend installed.  On Tumbleweed, there is a package called `cups-backends`, you might have something like that installed that includes other, lesser used backends.

The backends are stored in something like `/usr/lib/cups/backend/`
Comment 38 rob.dyck 2025-10-11 00:40:30 UTC
(In reply to Mike from comment #37)
> Very interesting and I learned something there, thx.  So, I never use the
> CUPS web gui but I know the "defaults" page you're referring to.
> 
> FYI, the discovered printers are defined by cups backends that you have
> installed.  So you probably have a braille backend installed.  On
> Tumbleweed, there is a package called `cups-backends`, you might have
> something like that installed that includes other, lesser used backends.
> 
> The backends are stored in something like `/usr/lib/cups/backend/`
Would that be /usr/lib/cups/backend/cups-brf ? I have it on F42 and F43.

After I got double sided printing working I rememberd that libre apps were unaffected. In fact double sided on the long edge was on by default just as cups said. There was an option to turn it off as well as using the short edge. So still a qt anomaly.
Comment 39 rob.dyck 2025-10-15 15:12:54 UTC
So the problematic cups queue has been deleted. I cannot reproduce the problem in F42 or F43. Perhaps a bug existed at he time I created the original queue for a driverless printer.
Comment 40 TraceyC 2025-10-15 16:33:45 UTC
Thanks for letting us know. I'm glad it's working properly on your system now.