SUMMARY Thanks to the recent vsync rework, upstream KWin now finally doesn't introduce stutter to application window content anymore. However, the default setting for new latency control "balance of latency and smoothness" introduces stutter when moving windows. STEPS TO REPRODUCE 1. Open www.vsynctester.com in Firefox (Webrender/OGL enabled) or Chromium 2. Drag another window (e.g. Dolphin) OBSERVED RESULT With "balance of latency and smoothness", the moving animation of the window shows intermittent stutter, whereas vsynctester.com in the background remains smooth. Oddly this stutter issue seems to be worse with the lower refresh rate of 60Hz vs. 85Hz. EXPECTED RESULT The window movement should be smooth. It is when setting latency to "prefer smoother animations", which still has very bearable latency. Thus I suggest making "prefer smoother animations" the default setting. It might also to be considered whether it would make sense to drop the options with lower latency than "prefer smoother animations" if they can't deliver an acceptable result with low GPU load and a fast GPU. Even better of course would be if they significantly lowered latency while not introducing any stutter under low GPU load conditions (kwin-lowlatency does achieve that). SOFTWARE/OS VERSIONS Linux/KDE Plasma: Arch 5.10 KDE Plasma Version: KWin git-master 8d84fe4b6ae26c501e416a5bc5eee8f5cf4a02bd Mesa 21 git-master + xf86-video-amdgpu, RX 5700 XT single 1440p display
We definitely can tweak the values. They came from guesstimates. It's something we didn't know at the time of writing. I don't think we should be changing the default from balanced, but rather changing the timings the interval represent.
The stutter in the default option is specially noticeable on Wayland. The compositor stutters like crazy on my (midly old, arguably...) RX 480. Anything that's not "prefer smoother animations" would inevitably cause even the cursor to stutter (which is super annoying), and even on that setting it will inevitably stutter randomly, making so the cursor stops moving completely for a second or so. On X doing "prefer smoother animations" works fine and I have no stutter.
(In reply to David Edmundson from comment #1) > We definitely can tweak the values. They came from guesstimates. It's > something we didn't know at the time of writing. > > I don't think we should be changing the default from balanced, but rather > changing the timings the interval represent. I'd try patches with different values. :)
(In reply to tempel.julian from comment #0) > With "balance of latency and smoothness", the moving animation of the window > shows intermittent stutter, whereas vsynctester.com in the background > remains smooth. This confuses me. If vsynctester doesn't stutter, it means that the compositor repaints the screen on time, but it's unfortunate enough not to process some input events. It's worth noting that the mouse movement may not be as uniform as you want it to be, e.g. I've tried to move the mouse at a constant rate as much as possible but I still see some jumpy movement. (on my machine, kwin won't perform compositing if you move the cursor unless a window has been damaged) Things might look differently if you have a super duper expensive gaming mouse with high polling rate though.
Yes, looks like an input issue. Indeed my mouse works at 1000Hz polling rate, though that's rather common even among cheaper mice these days. I think KWin should be able to deal with this (kwin-lowlatency really is :) ), as low-end polling rate of 125Hz isn't even sufficient to supply a 60Hz display with a guaranteed input update for each refresh. High polling rate is a dumb brute force solution, but the only realistic one available afaik. :(
Just to be sure, can you run evhz and move any window, e.g. konsole?
In my case (I have a wireless mouse), the polling rate varies a lot and on average it's quite low Logitech MX Master 2S: Latest 62Hz, Average 93Hz Logitech MX Master 2S: Latest 50Hz, Average 92Hz Logitech MX Master 2S: Latest 83Hz, Average 91Hz Logitech MX Master 2S: Latest 125Hz, Average 92Hz Logitech MX Master 2S: Latest 62Hz, Average 91Hz Logitech MX Master 2S: Latest 62Hz, Average 91Hz Logitech MX Master 2S: Latest 125Hz, Average 92Hz Logitech MX Master 2S: Latest 55Hz, Average 91Hz Logitech MX Master 2S: Latest 166Hz, Average 92Hz Logitech MX Master 2S: Latest 125Hz, Average 93Hz Logitech MX Master 2S: Latest 100Hz, Average 92Hz Logitech MX Master 2S: Latest 125Hz, Average 93Hz Logitech MX Master 2S: Latest 125Hz, Average 93Hz Logitech MX Master 2S: Latest 71Hz, Average 92Hz Logitech MX Master 2S: Latest 125Hz, Average 93Hz Logitech MX Master 2S: Latest 125Hz, Average 93Hz Logitech MX Master 2S: Latest 55Hz, Average 92Hz Logitech MX Master 2S: Latest 125Hz, Average 93Hz Logitech MX Master 2S: Latest 125Hz, Average 93Hz Logitech MX Master 2S: Latest 62Hz, Average 93Hz Logitech MX Master 2S: Latest 125Hz, Average 93Hz Logitech MX Master 2S: Latest 62Hz, Average 92Hz Logitech MX Master 2S: Latest 125Hz, Average 93Hz Logitech MX Master 2S: Latest 125Hz, Average 93Hz Logitech MX Master 2S: Latest 125Hz, Average 94Hz Logitech MX Master 2S: Latest 62Hz, Average 94Hz Logitech MX Master 2S: Latest 100Hz, Average 93Hz Logitech MX Master 2S: Latest 71Hz, Average 93Hz Logitech MX Master 2S: Latest 125Hz, Average 93Hz Logitech MX Master 2S: Latest 83Hz, Average 94Hz Logitech MX Master 2S: Latest 250Hz, Average 96Hz Logitech MX Master 2S: Latest 62Hz, Average 95Hz Logitech MX Master 2S: Latest 50Hz, Average 95Hz Logitech MX Master 2S: Latest 250Hz, Average 97Hz Logitech MX Master 2S: Latest 83Hz, Average 96Hz Logitech MX Master 2S: Latest 250Hz, Average 99Hz Logitech MX Master 2S: Latest 125Hz, Average 99Hz Logitech MX Master 2S: Latest 41Hz, Average 98Hz
evhz: Logitech G203 Prodigy Gaming Mouse: Latest 1000Hz, Average 906Hz Logitech G203 Prodigy Gaming Mouse: Latest 500Hz, Average 898Hz Logitech G203 Prodigy Gaming Mouse: Latest 500Hz, Average 890Hz Logitech G203 Prodigy Gaming Mouse: Latest 500Hz, Average 890Hz Logitech G203 Prodigy Gaming Mouse: Latest 1000Hz, Average 890Hz Logitech G203 Prodigy Gaming Mouse: Latest 500Hz, Average 890Hz Logitech G203 Prodigy Gaming Mouse: Latest 333Hz, Average 880Hz Logitech G203 Prodigy Gaming Mouse: Latest 500Hz, Average 872Hz Logitech G203 Prodigy Gaming Mouse: Latest 333Hz, Average 861Hz Logitech G203 Prodigy Gaming Mouse: Latest 500Hz, Average 854Hz Logitech G203 Prodigy Gaming Mouse: Latest 250Hz, Average 842Hz Logitech G203 Prodigy Gaming Mouse: Latest 250Hz, Average 830Hz Logitech G203 Prodigy Gaming Mouse: Latest 125Hz, Average 817Hz Logitech G203 Prodigy Gaming Mouse: Latest 3Hz, Average 801Hz Logitech G203 Prodigy Gaming Mouse: Latest 90Hz, Average 787Hz Logitech G203 Prodigy Gaming Mouse: Latest 333Hz, Average 776Hz Logitech G203 Prodigy Gaming Mouse: Latest 333Hz, Average 766Hz Logitech G203 Prodigy Gaming Mouse: Latest 200Hz, Average 753Hz Logitech G203 Prodigy Gaming Mouse: Latest 500Hz, Average 746Hz Logitech G203 Prodigy Gaming Mouse: Latest 333Hz, Average 735Hz Logitech G203 Prodigy Gaming Mouse: Latest 200Hz, Average 730Hz Logitech G203 Prodigy Gaming Mouse: Latest 250Hz, Average 719Hz Logitech G203 Prodigy Gaming Mouse: Latest 200Hz, Average 706Hz Logitech G203 Prodigy Gaming Mouse: Latest 200Hz, Average 694Hz Logitech G203 Prodigy Gaming Mouse: Latest 500Hz, Average 686Hz Logitech G203 Prodigy Gaming Mouse: Latest 1000Hz, Average 686Hz Logitech G203 Prodigy Gaming Mouse: Latest 250Hz, Average 674Hz Logitech G203 Prodigy Gaming Mouse: Latest 333Hz, Average 664Hz Logitech G203 Prodigy Gaming Mouse: Latest 250Hz, Average 652Hz Logitech G203 Prodigy Gaming Mouse: Latest 333Hz, Average 642Hz Logitech G203 Prodigy Gaming Mouse: Latest 500Hz, Average 634Hz Logitech G203 Prodigy Gaming Mouse: Latest 500Hz, Average 626Hz Logitech G203 Prodigy Gaming Mouse: Latest 166Hz, Average 613Hz Logitech G203 Prodigy Gaming Mouse: Latest 250Hz, Average 601Hz Logitech G203 Prodigy Gaming Mouse: Latest 333Hz, Average 591Hz Should be stuck at 1000Hz, but guess not.
Ah, if I move it slowly the Hz goes down. (In reply to David Rubio from comment #8) > evhz: > Logitech G203 Prodigy Gaming Mouse: Latest 1000Hz, Average 906Hz > Logitech G203 Prodigy Gaming Mouse: Latest 500Hz, Average 898Hz > Logitech G203 Prodigy Gaming Mouse: Latest 500Hz, Average 890Hz > Logitech G203 Prodigy Gaming Mouse: Latest 500Hz, Average 890Hz > Logitech G203 Prodigy Gaming Mouse: Latest 1000Hz, Average 890Hz > Logitech G203 Prodigy Gaming Mouse: Latest 500Hz, Average 890Hz > Logitech G203 Prodigy Gaming Mouse: Latest 333Hz, Average 880Hz > Logitech G203 Prodigy Gaming Mouse: Latest 500Hz, Average 872Hz > Logitech G203 Prodigy Gaming Mouse: Latest 333Hz, Average 861Hz > Logitech G203 Prodigy Gaming Mouse: Latest 500Hz, Average 854Hz > Logitech G203 Prodigy Gaming Mouse: Latest 250Hz, Average 842Hz > Logitech G203 Prodigy Gaming Mouse: Latest 250Hz, Average 830Hz > Logitech G203 Prodigy Gaming Mouse: Latest 125Hz, Average 817Hz > Logitech G203 Prodigy Gaming Mouse: Latest 3Hz, Average 801Hz > Logitech G203 Prodigy Gaming Mouse: Latest 90Hz, Average 787Hz > Logitech G203 Prodigy Gaming Mouse: Latest 333Hz, Average 776Hz > Logitech G203 Prodigy Gaming Mouse: Latest 333Hz, Average 766Hz > Logitech G203 Prodigy Gaming Mouse: Latest 200Hz, Average 753Hz > Logitech G203 Prodigy Gaming Mouse: Latest 500Hz, Average 746Hz > Logitech G203 Prodigy Gaming Mouse: Latest 333Hz, Average 735Hz > Logitech G203 Prodigy Gaming Mouse: Latest 200Hz, Average 730Hz > Logitech G203 Prodigy Gaming Mouse: Latest 250Hz, Average 719Hz > Logitech G203 Prodigy Gaming Mouse: Latest 200Hz, Average 706Hz > Logitech G203 Prodigy Gaming Mouse: Latest 200Hz, Average 694Hz > Logitech G203 Prodigy Gaming Mouse: Latest 500Hz, Average 686Hz > Logitech G203 Prodigy Gaming Mouse: Latest 1000Hz, Average 686Hz > Logitech G203 Prodigy Gaming Mouse: Latest 250Hz, Average 674Hz > Logitech G203 Prodigy Gaming Mouse: Latest 333Hz, Average 664Hz > Logitech G203 Prodigy Gaming Mouse: Latest 250Hz, Average 652Hz > Logitech G203 Prodigy Gaming Mouse: Latest 333Hz, Average 642Hz > Logitech G203 Prodigy Gaming Mouse: Latest 500Hz, Average 634Hz > Logitech G203 Prodigy Gaming Mouse: Latest 500Hz, Average 626Hz > Logitech G203 Prodigy Gaming Mouse: Latest 166Hz, Average 613Hz > Logitech G203 Prodigy Gaming Mouse: Latest 250Hz, Average 601Hz > Logitech G203 Prodigy Gaming Mouse: Latest 333Hz, Average 591Hz > > Should be stuck at 1000Hz, but guess not. After re-setting it to 1000Hz, it's now stuck at 1000Hz, lol Logitech G203 Prodigy Gaming Mouse: Latest 1000Hz, Average 1000Hz Logitech G203 Prodigy Gaming Mouse: Latest 1000Hz, Average 1000Hz Logitech G203 Prodigy Gaming Mouse: Latest 1000Hz, Average 1000Hz Logitech G203 Prodigy Gaming Mouse: Latest 1000Hz, Average 1000Hz Logitech G203 Prodigy Gaming Mouse: Latest 1000Hz, Average 1000Hz Logitech G203 Prodigy Gaming Mouse: Latest 1000Hz, Average 1000Hz Logitech G203 Prodigy Gaming Mouse: Latest 1000Hz, Average 1000Hz Logitech G203 Prodigy Gaming Mouse: Latest 1000Hz, Average 1000Hz Logitech G203 Prodigy Gaming Mouse: Latest 1000Hz, Average 1000Hz Logitech G203 Prodigy Gaming Mouse: Latest 1000Hz, Average 1000Hz Logitech G203 Prodigy Gaming Mouse: Latest 1000Hz, Average 1000Hz Logitech G203 Prodigy Gaming Mouse: Latest 1000Hz, Average 1000Hz Logitech G203 Prodigy Gaming Mouse: Latest 1000Hz, Average 1000Hz Logitech G203 Prodigy Gaming Mouse: Latest 1000Hz, Average 1000Hz Logitech G203 Prodigy Gaming Mouse: Latest 1000Hz, Average 1000Hz Logitech G203 Prodigy Gaming Mouse: Latest 1000Hz, Average 1000Hz Logitech G203 Prodigy Gaming Mouse: Latest 1000Hz, Average 1000Hz Logitech G203 Prodigy Gaming Mouse: Latest 1000Hz, Average 1000Hz Logitech G203 Prodigy Gaming Mouse: Latest 1000Hz, Average 1000Hz Logitech G203 Prodigy Gaming Mouse: Latest 1000Hz, Average 1000Hz Logitech G203 Prodigy Gaming Mouse: Latest 1000Hz, Average 1000Hz Logitech G203 Prodigy Gaming Mouse: Latest 1000Hz, Average 1000Hz Logitech G203 Prodigy Gaming Mouse: Latest 1000Hz, Average 1000Hz Logitech G203 Prodigy Gaming Mouse: Latest 1000Hz, Average 1000Hz Logitech G203 Prodigy Gaming Mouse: Latest 1000Hz, Average 1000Hz Logitech G203 Prodigy Gaming Mouse: Latest 1000Hz, Average 1000Hz Logitech G203 Prodigy Gaming Mouse: Latest 1000Hz, Average 1000Hz Logitech G203 Prodigy Gaming Mouse: Latest 1000Hz, Average 1000Hz Logitech G203 Prodigy Gaming Mouse: Latest 1000Hz, Average 1000Hz Logitech G203 Prodigy Gaming Mouse: Latest 1000Hz, Average 1000Hz Logitech G203 Prodigy Gaming Mouse: Latest 1000Hz, Average 1000Hz Logitech G203 Prodigy Gaming Mouse: Latest 1000Hz, Average 1000Hz Logitech G203 Prodigy Gaming Mouse: Latest 1000Hz, Average 1000Hz Though if you move it slowly it starts to go down to like 1 or 3Hz, I guess to save energy.
SteelSeries SteelSeries Rival 100 Gaming Mouse: Latest 27Hz, Average 0Hz SteelSeries SteelSeries Rival 100 Gaming Mouse: Latest 500Hz, Average 13Hz SteelSeries SteelSeries Rival 100 Gaming Mouse: Latest 1000Hz, Average 175Hz SteelSeries SteelSeries Rival 100 Gaming Mouse: Latest 500Hz, Average 381Hz SteelSeries SteelSeries Rival 100 Gaming Mouse: Latest 1000Hz, Average 405Hz SteelSeries SteelSeries Rival 100 Gaming Mouse: Latest 1000Hz, Average 504Hz SteelSeries SteelSeries Rival 100 Gaming Mouse: Latest 1000Hz, Average 575Hz SteelSeries SteelSeries Rival 100 Gaming Mouse: Latest 1000Hz, Average 628Hz SteelSeries SteelSeries Rival 100 Gaming Mouse: Latest 500Hz, Average 669Hz SteelSeries SteelSeries Rival 100 Gaming Mouse: Latest 1000Hz, Average 652Hz SteelSeries SteelSeries Rival 100 Gaming Mouse: Latest 1000Hz, Average 684Hz SteelSeries SteelSeries Rival 100 Gaming Mouse: Latest 1000Hz, Average 710Hz SteelSeries SteelSeries Rival 100 Gaming Mouse: Latest 1000Hz, Average 732Hz 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Mouse: Latest 1000Hz, Average 1000Hz SteelSeries SteelSeries Rival 100 Gaming Mouse: Latest 1000Hz, Average 1000Hz SteelSeries SteelSeries Rival 100 Gaming Mouse: Latest 1000Hz, Average 1000Hz --- I'll try whether a lower polling rate makes a difference. The dynamic lowering of polling rate to save power shouldn't be responsible for the "skipping", as it naturally is also active with kwin-lowlatency.
The difference between "Balance of latency and smoothness" and "prefer smoother animations" seems at least to be less with 125Hz mouse polling rate vs. 1000Hz and 85Hz display refresh rate. However, it's a bit hard to tell, as the 125Hz polling rate look really bad in general. I really think the goal should be to make it as good as possible with 1000Hz. Also, I think it would be really unfortunate to roll out Plasma 5.21 with default settings that wouldn't suite a substantial part of the user base well (as both David Rubio and me have issues with very different refresh rates), especially if there's the chance to basically avoid the issue for free with slightly different "golden numbers".
431509 might also just be this.
(In reply to David Rubio from comment #12) > 431509 might also just be this. At least in part, but it seems like it's not as cut clear and might be different :p
(In reply to tempel.julian from comment #11) > The difference between "Balance of latency and smoothness" and "prefer > smoother animations" seems at least to be less with 125Hz mouse polling rate > vs. 1000Hz and 85Hz display refresh rate. However, it's a bit hard to tell, > as the 125Hz polling rate look really bad in general. I really think the > goal should be to make it as good as possible with 1000Hz. > > Also, I think it would be really unfortunate to roll out Plasma 5.21 with > default settings that wouldn't suite a substantial part of the user base > well (as both David Rubio and me have issues with very different refresh > rates), especially if there's the chance to basically avoid the issue for > free with slightly different "golden numbers". I have a 144Hz monitor, so 125Hz polling rate actually does look really bad :P But yeah, smoothness of animations and stuttering is definitely more noticeable on my 144Hz monitor than in my 60Hz monitor.
Okay, so it seems like it's an issue related to high mouse polling rates. Aurorae is a known performance killer, do stutters also occur with breeze window decoration?
My reports are with Breeze decorations. :)
Hmm, okay then, I will wait until my 1000Hz mouse arrives.
Created attachment 134849 [details] patch Could someone please test this patch? Do windows still stutter when you move them?
With that patch, the skipping seems to be entirely gone and I can use "force lowest latency" on both Xorg and Wayland without issues. :)
A possibly relevant merge request was started @ https://invent.kde.org/plasma/kwin/-/merge_requests/590
It will be highly appreciated if somebody could test ^^^
With that MR, everything is fine here on both Xorg and Wayland! :)
Phew! Great! :-)
Git commit b5a1eba2779b06715508365c6e2b86017151cef0 by Vlad Zahorodnii. Committed on 14/01/2021 at 18:45. Pushed by vladz into branch 'master'. Properly schedule repaints with premature presentation timestamps The last presentation timestamp might be in the future by a couple of hundred microseconds. This may break timestamp aligning code because it assumes that the last presentation timestamp is less or equal to the current time. In order to properly handle this case, we have to first compute the next expected presentation timestamp by advancing the last presentation timestamp by the amount of vblank interval. If that fails, we can safely resort to aligning timestamps. Related: bug 431509 M +5 -2 renderloop.cpp https://invent.kde.org/plasma/kwin/commit/b5a1eba2779b06715508365c6e2b86017151cef0