Hi Jean-Baptiste,

I just found this article:

Downgrade Packages on Ubuntu
http://www.howtogeek.com/117929/how-to-downgrade-packages-on-ubuntu/

I launched the Synaptic Package Manager and uninstalled Kdenlive 4.16.08.1. Then I rebooted my machine. Then I launched the Synaptic Package Manager and chose Package–>Force Version. I saw that Kdenlive 4.15.12.3 was listed beneath Kdenlive 4.16.08.1 but I received an error message when I tried to install Kdenlive 4.15.12.3.

As I posted in my penultimate comment, which is also the initial comment in this bug report, I want to install Kdenlive 16.04.3. However, it was not listed in the Synaptic Package Manager.

Thanks,

Yekutiel

Hello
regarding 16.8 usability, aren't you missing the timeline toolbar?
https://forum.kde.org/viewtopic.php?f=265&t=135852&p=363497#p363497
=> try restarting kdenlive after this command:
rm ~/.local/share/kxmlgui5/kdenlive/kdenliveui.rc

Hi Vincent,

Thanks for responding quickly to my bug report. I appreciate that. I have copied and pasted the following from the first post in this bug report,

"Also, for now please do not offer to help me debug my installation of Kdenlive 16.08.1. I will be glad to work with you on that later. For now I want to reinstall Kdenlive 16.04.3."

By anticipating your response I hope you realize that I've been down the "reluctant beta testing path" with many developers over the years. "Come on. Install our new software. It's great! You'll love it. We've quashed all, er, uh, almost all of the bugs." At the moment, I don't want to help you fix your "bright shiny new object." Instead, I want to get back to work. 

and

I have copied and pasted the following from the first post in this bug report,

"I would like to reinstall Kdenlive Version 16.04.3 from the Synaptic Package Manager for Xubuntu..."

Is that an unreasonable request?

and

I have copied and pasted the following from the first post in this bug report,

"I do not mean to excoriate you, but instead explicitly remind you that—as I presume you are aware—it is considered proper software engineering practice to provide users with a downgrade path should they encounter bugs after upgrading to a new version."

Now I am going to rebuke you. Please do not offer me the help you have unreasonably decided that I need, but instead the help I have reasonably requested based on a serious error your team has apparently committed by apparently failing to allow users to easily downgrade Kdenlive. This apparent failure clearly violates good software engineering practice.

In other words, if I ask you what day of the week it is, February is an unreasonable response. A reasonable dialogue requires each party to answer each others reasonable points. You blatantly ignored my reasonable points and instead made an unreasonable request of your own. You are neither my doctor nor am I your patient. You do not know what is best for me. I want to get back to work. I don't want to go back and forth with you guys trying to debug my current installation of Kdenlive. Ok?

I am not a software engineer but I wonder: how much trouble would it be for one of your team members to put Kdenlive Version 16.04.3 back up on the Synaptic Package Manager for Xubuntu? And furthermore, why don't you guys leave old versions of Kdenlive up the on the Synaptic Package Manager so that users could, at their discretion, download downgrade as they saw fit?

Thanks,

Yekutiel

I'll set up an oldstable repo hopefully this evening.
We don't ask you to debug our fancy bits because 16.8.1 has already been tested quite intensively in beta path and since 16.8.0.
I haven't read your other posts (where?), did you explicit the usability problems?

Hi Vincent,

Thanks for responding quickly to my missive.  Also, thank you for agreeing to "set up an oldstable repo." I hope that means one I can download from the Synaptic Package Manager used by GalliumOS (which is an Xubuntu flavor)

>> I haven't read your other posts (where?), did you explicit the usability problems?

No I did not explicitly describe the usability problems. I merely reported the following:

https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=364559
"Previously I tried installed Kdenlive from a Terminal but although it installed, it would crash immediately upon launching. In other words, it was completely unusable for me."

I was so tired of Kdenlive crashing on me that a couple/few months ago I spent several hours trying to install various versions of Kdenlive from various sources via a Terminal. They all were utterly unusable, therefore I ended up uninstalling them and downloading Kdenlive 16.04.3 from the Synaptic Package Manager used by GalliumOS (which is an Xubuntu flavor).

I subsequently figured out how to, for the most part, which actions to avoid so that  Kdenlive 16.04.3 would not crash on me. Prior to that, for perhaps a month or so Kdenlive 16.04.3 used to crash on me every 5 to 15 minutes when I was using it. Of course that was both annoying and time-consuming. 

This bug report includes a video (screencast) I made showing the bug that kept causing my computer to crash:
https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=368984

I have used numerous non-linear video editing applications over the years. Frankly, it did not occur to me that overlapping videos in the timeline was causing Kdenlive to crash. It was like imagining that choosing to, say, bold text in a word-processor would cause it to crash.

Overlapping videos in the timeline is such a basic operation that I was implicitly assuming that Kdenlive would operate properly when I overlapped videos in the timeline. I was dumbstruck when I realized that overlapping videos was causing Kdenlive to crash. Then when you guys failed to allow for downgrading Kdenlive I assumed I was dealing with teenagers who were just cutting their teeth in the world of application development.

Kdenlive is a typical FOSS project: it has (or at least had) many glaring bugs, a mediocre user interface, and pell-mell documentation. Volunteer developers unsurprisingly focus on what they enjoy, developing. Therefore, despite their vociferous assertions to the contrary, usability is almost invariably shunted aside in favor of features.

In practice, most developers fail to distinguish between features and benefits despite their ability to stridently trot out their theoretical knowledge of the two terms when confronted with their glaring failure to properly actually distinguish between the two. Ordinary users aren't interested in features per se, rather they normally want benefits.

Whereas artists typically worship the gods of grace and beauty, engineers typically worship the gods of truth and power. Typically to both artists and engineers: clients, customers, users, etcetera are merely nuisances to be tolerated while they serve their false gods.

In many organizations, the role of of some managers is to persuade artists and engineers to serve clients, customers, users, etcetera. The resulting friction between the two sides typically leads to acrimony. Do you feel any acrimony towards me? Yes. I have managed both artists and engineers. I am accustomed to being disliked by them. The artists and engineers wanted to focus on their craft whereas, like most managers, I needed a product that would serve customers. It is a necessary tension. Ultimately the party that is supposed to win is neither the artist nor the engineer nor the manager but instead the customer.

The following comes from:
https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=368984

Also, I suppose that Kdenlive would attract many new users if it had a "novice mode" which contained far fewer options. (You might think of this as merely graying out many of the current options although I would suggest they would be actually be removed). Getting up to speed on Kdenlive was a hassle for me. It could have been *much* easier.

See:

Design for the Novice, Configure for the Pro
https://bothsidesofthetable.com/design-for-the-novice-configure-for-the-pro-b259c6b4662a#.ht8klwvqo

and

The Paradox of Choice
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Paradox_of_Choice

If you want me to elucidate any or all of the above ideas please let me know.

Thanks,

Yekutiel

Sorry guy to answer frankly without waiting, but your theories about FLOSS devs in general & kdenlive in particular are getting on my nerves. There might be some real things, but so many at the opposite of all our efforts, it's really disappointing to read that.
All versions (expect 15.04 that we warned against) were usable for at least basic work by many people, I'm not convinced that 16.04.3 is so special.
If you want to downgade, use your distribution package, and not our "amateur" PPA.
I'm really demotivated to take on my family/sleep time to offer you the help you ask so inefficiently.
Your *technical* problem seems to be 1) a user setup problem (try setting up a new test user sometimes to have a blank config) 2) a distribution/packaging problem.
Then there are organization problems (don't switch your work config while in an urgent process, test on side config), etc.

Hi Vincent,

Today please post Kdenlive Version 16.04.3 back up on the Synaptic Package Manager for Xubuntu. 

As I indicated above, 

===
===
As I presume you are aware, the Synaptic Package Manager for Xubuntu no longer has Kdenlive Version 16.04.3. Instead it currently has  Kdenlive Version 16.08.1.
===
===

and

===
===
I would like to reinstall Kdenlive Version 16.04.3 from the Synaptic Package Manager for Xubuntu because I have failed many times over the last few months to install a usable version of Kdenlive using the Terminal such as,

sudo add-apt-repository ppa:kdenlive/kdenlive-stable
sudo apt-get update
sudo apt-get install kdenlive
===
===

In the meantime, I welcome you to re-read this entire thread and engage me in a reasonable discourse.

Perhaps in the future I'll add your heartfelt plea to my anthology of lamentations entitled, "Ode to the Misunderstood FOSS Developer... who wantonly violates standard good software engineering practices, ignores or deflects reasonable requests, and then threatens to 'take his marbles and go home' if his nonsensical requests aren't met."

99% of FOSS is pathetic and barely used because self-indulgent and/or incompetent Midnight Engineers follow their own myopic version of what is "good software." I expect you realize that actual standards for good software do exist. They have not been canonized and they certainly vary, but they tend to share many tenets including allowing users to return to a previously known "working state" which, of course, subsumes concepts like allowing users to downgrade an application at their request. If you would like me to dig up some of these standards for you, I will be glad to.

I am trying to ensure Kdenlive is not stuck the muck and mire of the 99% category of FOSS— mentioned in the preceding paragraph— but instead is counted among those applications in the lofty 1% category. I suggest you stop complaining and instead "step up your game" so that you can become a better developer.

Thanks,

Yekutiel

Thanks for citing me in your ode (I place my comments under CC-BY-SA to ensure my celebrity).
Thanks for pulling me up in the top 1% class, saving me from the normal mediocrity of my friends.
Thanks for teaching me basis in software engineering and communication skills.
Oh, and I'm not happy with windows 10, please let me revert...
Have fun!

On technical side:

apt-get build-dep kdenlive
wget http://download.kde.org/stable/applications/16.04.3/src/kdenlive-16.04.3.tar.xz
tar xaf kdenlive-16.04.3.tar.xz
cd kdenlive*

mkdir build
cd build
cmake ..
sudo make -j4 install

Hi Vincent,

Thank you very much for your comment which begins, "On technical side:" which is comment 9 in this thread. I appreciate you taking the time to create those instructions for me and to post them for me.

I just downloaded http://download.kde.org/stable/applications/16.04.3/src/kdenlive-16.04.3.tar.xz

The team at Mozilla solve the problem of allowing users to downgrade or install older versions of add-ons to Firefox in an efficient and effective manner that I hope  you will consider.

Here's an example of what I am thinking of:
https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/nosquint-plus/versions/

What's not to like about that solution? I am not being facetious. Really. Is something wrong with it? It seems like it would be trivial for you guys to implement. 

Also, is it technically challenging to maintain multiple versions of Kdenlive in package managers such as the Synaptic Package Manager? I have found applications typically are more likely to run smoothly for me when I install them from a package manager instead of when I install them from a Terminal. (I assume some minor technical changes are made to a particular application which tends to make it run smoother on a particular flavor of Linux).

I am not merely thinking of GalliumOS (an Xubuntu flavor) that I am currently using but I am also thinking of  Ubuntu, Lubuntu, Linux Mint, and Puppy Linux which I have used over the years.

From a logistical perspective, I don't mind using the Terminal at all. I typically merely scroll through my list of recent commands in a Terminal using my up or down arrow on my keyboard to select a command I recently used. Then, if necessary, I edit the command I have chosen. I actually use a Terminal fairly frequently albeit for minor operations such as shutting my computer down in, say, three hours. But I have been burned so many times installing applications from the Terminal that I find myself not merely consciously but actually subconsciously reluctant to do so.

If I recall correctly, package managers typically install the most current version of an application by default. Therefore, if such behavior were standard across different versions of Linux,  then even if a package manager were to maintain scores of versions of a particular application, a user would be extremely unlikely to inadvertently install an old version of an application. And given the remarkably low cost of electronic storage media these days, it seems unlikely that cost would be a constraint.

Finally, it's not as if I have stumbled upon some arcane technical problem you guys are unaware of. Version control is a need common to virtually all software that is being developed or even maintained.

Why "reinvent the wheel?" Instead, I hope you guys will essentially copy and implement a solution that will be elegant for both your technical team as well as for users.

Thanks,

Yekutiel

After fixing urgent problems on other PPAs, I've setup the one you asked for:
https://launchpad.net/~kdenlive/+archive/ubuntu/kdenlive-oldstable/

Thank you. I appreciate you taking the time to do that.