monit (a Polish word seemingly) ->  prompt-note, prompt,  reminder, notice, etc.

Where exactly did you get Trojita from? There is no part in the code which asks you to renew your certificate. There is something which informs you about expired server's certificate, but the TLS key pinning should take care of it. Could you please provide a full error message?

> running in the background
Does that mean "the window is behind others" or "minimized to systray"?

> making this application practically unusable
The error *message* is likely not - is the reason for the connection failure known (wonky network connection)?

I used official 0.6 installer. 

The case of certificates is explained in this article (which obviously I didn't write):

"I was prompted to accept and remember Google’s security certificate. What makes this all the more annoying is the fact that Trojitá knows that it’s a trusted certificate (it says so in the dialog) but it’s asking you if you want to use it and remember it anyway. In this instance I don’t see a benefit, as I’m not in the habit of manually verifying certificate hashes. Trojitá will at least remember this key, so it doesn’t prompt you for it every time, but if the server changes keys (which it did at least once during the week I was using Trojitá) you will be prompted to accept the new one too." http://www.linuxveda.com/2015/02/03/review-trojita/

======

>> running in the background 
>Does that mean "the window is behind others" or "minimized to systray"?

It might be either. I meant that it happens when I work, browser the net or play solitaire, i.e. do anything else than writing emails, or even then. It just happens and I think it shouldn't - it is just less disturbing when I happen to be reading/writing emails because it is somehow connected to this experience.

 >> making this application practically unusable 
>The error *message* is likely not - is the reason for the connection failure known (wonky network connection)?

My cable connection is very good. I will try to reproduce it and provide a screenshot - just give me a few days.

Otherwise, thanks for this promising piece of software (even though it has some aspects to be improved)!

Created attachment 97337 [details]
Opening Inbox failed and returned the following message: connection was lost for unspecified reasons.

Didn't have to wait long, did I? It happens all the time!

Connection loss sounds terribly like bug #359576, please provide a full connection log respectively.

The certification-note-once-a-week is sort of a gmail specific thing (though I've to admit that the dialog bears no actual value to me; i just click it away - as I shouldn't)
I've no particular opinion on this item. As mentioned, the dialog isn't terribly important to me, but showing about once a week when starting trojitá, it's not that an annoyance either.

> It might be either. I meant that it happens when I work, browser the net or play solitaire, i.e. do anything else than writing emails

It's kind of a MS Windows issue to let dialogs of inactive windows move to foreground if they merely open (something X11 WMs traditionally suppress) - we can hardly just stop telling you that there was some error (and the core functionality is no longer given)

=> Jan, the only resolution I could think of was to defer such messages until the main window gets shown/activated (though the downside of this is that you'll get informed "late" about the dysfunction), at least on windows?

(In reply to Thomas Lübking from comment #6)
> Connection loss sounds terribly like bug #359576, please provide a full
> connection log respectively.

Where do I find (and extract) this so called 'connection log'?

> The certification-note-once-a-week is sort of a gmail specific thing (though
> I've to admit that the dialog bears no actual value to me; i just click it
> away - as I shouldn't)
> I've no particular opinion on this item. As mentioned, the dialog isn't
> terribly important to me, but showing about once a week when starting
> trojitá, it's not that an annoyance either.

Maybe you don't have a particular opinion, but your reasoning represents pure casuistry here.

Firstly, the dialog showing IS annoying; it is NOT NOT annoying (even if it happens rarely, but unlike you write "when starting trojitá" - not necessarily true, it happens also while the app is running).

Secondly, what sort of statement is that it is "sort of a gmail specific thing"? Apart from fact that it may be true. Trojita can use a single mailbox; in my case (and half the internet users) it is gmail? So what? If you admit you yourself as developer "just click it away - as I shouldn't"  - what do you think an average user does? Are you disowning this part of code as non-belonging in Trojita?

I find it bizarre to be compelled to explain the obvious... Especially since the program itself is very clever. I am an average user, so my opinion doesn't weigh much, but these things (and some others) are dealbreakers for Trojita.

> we can hardly just stop telling you that there was some error (and the core
> functionality is no longer given)

Fact is, core functionality is still in given. The message is just an annoying sign that the app has had a moment of weakness, but it keeps running nonetheless.

> => Jan, the only resolution I could think of was to defer such messages
> until the main window gets shown/activated (though the downside of this is
> that you'll get informed "late" about the dysfunction), at least on windows?

This is not the problem. I can click Alt-Tab and achieve the same effect.

** Fact is, core functionality is still given; it is still in place (correction) **

(In reply to msjasinski from comment #7)
> Where do I find (and extract) this so called 'connection log'?

IMAP -> Debugging -> Show IMAP Connection Log (and there's also an option to log into a file).

> Firstly, the dialog showing IS annoying; it is NOT NOT annoying (even if it
> happens rarely, but unlike you write "when starting trojitá" - not
> necessarily true, it happens also while the app is running).

Nobody of us use Windows. On some window managers on other platforms, the visual action which happens as a result of a QMessageBox is a pop-up which does not pop-up to the foreground until the application window gets focus -- i.e., if you are working on something else, you won't get interrupted at all.

According to your report, Windows happens to work differently (and the new KWin in Plasma5 shares this behavior). That might explain why it's a high-profile blocker issue for you, and "meh, so what" for Thomas and me.

Anyway, this is bug 342940.

> Secondly, what sort of statement is that it is "sort of a gmail specific
> thing"?

Trojita uses TLS key pinning, which means that we do not fully subscribe to the arguably broken CA model which is now pretty common with X.509 certificates, where any party among the several hundred of companies can issue any certificate to any possible domain name, and our systems would still call it valid -- in other words, a Chinese, Turkish, Russian agency or for example NSA can (and some of them do, every now and then) issue a certificate to steal your GMail (or work, or private, or whatever) credentials.

This is a serious problem which is hard to solve (consult all the screaming about self-signed certs that the web browsers do). Some browsers such as Chrome ship with a list of pinned TLS keys, where the application starts screaming badly when the underlying key changes ("key" is what allows one to decrypt the communication, it is not provided by the CA. "Cert" is something which is public knowledge, it's issued by a CA, and it's *based on* some private key. In other words, an attacker who is able to persuade a trusted CA to issue a fake cert for the attacker's key can get your data.)

> Apart from fact that it may be true. Trojita can use a single
> mailbox; in my case (and half the internet users) it is gmail?

I've heard reports that GMail is special in that they apparently cycle through private *keys* very often -- hence the weekly prompts. That of course breaks the TLS key pinning if it really happens. However, it has never happened for my GMail account as far as I can tell. How come?

> > we can hardly just stop telling you that there was some error (and the core
> > functionality is no longer given)
> 
> Fact is, core functionality is still in given. The message is just an
> annoying sign that the app has had a moment of weakness, but it keeps
> running nonetheless.

You guys are each speaking about something else. Thomas says that whenever the network connection disconnects for some reason (either a crappy cable modem, a flaky wifi, a broken system configuration, a bug in Qt's network session management, a bug in some bearer plugin, or a scheduled maintenance on the remote IMAP server for example), Trojita has to somehow recover form this condition. Right now, this involves resetting some state, for example the list of open mailboxes. It's a result of the interrupted network connection, and it's fair to report that to the user. I agree with Thomas.

You're saying that you do not claim that Trojita is broken, and that you're merely pointing out that this particular property tends to get annoying -- especially given that the popup dialog is apparently modal on Windows, and that it interrupts your workflow. You're also right.

> > => Jan, the only resolution I could think of was to defer such messages
> > until the main window gets shown/activated (though the downside of this is
> > that you'll get informed "late" about the dysfunction), at least on windows?
> 
> This is not the problem. I can click Alt-Tab and achieve the same effect.

I think that a passive pop-up fully enclosed in the app's main widget is the way to go -- maybe with a sysray or systemwide notificaiton mechanism.

*** This bug has been marked as a duplicate of bug 342940 ***

The popup is modal on Linux as well, gmail is rotating their keys "like hell" (ie. indeed happens once a week for me - but I've *never* seen that happen while I was logged in. *never* That's why I believe it happens for dis- and autoreconnects), whether the entire thing is "annoying", a nuisance or actually valuable information strongly relies on its frequency, I've no idea how "often pops up messages telling that it can't connect" do NOT indicate broken core functionality (heck, you're IMAP client isn't talking to the server - that means it's not doing anything) and I frankly cannot read the least sense into the tabbox mentioning on the end.

All that aside:
Notifications cannot be (reasonably) used if user interaction is required to confirm things etc. (ie. while not reqired to inform the user that trojitá is now offline/cannot connect, it means a behavioral change when only informing about new certs and act unconditionally) 

Also, as mentioned in the other bug, there's no Qt abstraction for the various notification systems
=> we could move (persisting) connection losses into the present tooltip, though (which also do only show while trojita is active) - no idea about the certification message.
If it's not relevant nor shall be confirmed by the user, It's likely best to just log it w/o any GUI.
If it shall remain a relevant interception, deferring it until the main window gets activated is still the best mitigation I can think of (still no idea about the tabbox relation to this)


PS, @msjasinski
I'll assume that you're English is not very good and that you do not actually know the meaning of terms like "casuistry" - I suggest to use a simple variant of English where you're aware of your made statements (it does not apply - notably since I didn't reason anything itfp. - nor did you describe it) which otherwise could easily be taken as an insult.


PPS: no released KWin version should (by) default allow inactive clients to spam you with a dialog in your face - nor switch the current desktop for them (iirc. that's more like being a -resolved- problem with showing tooltips unconditionally)

There's a pending patch to ensure those dialogs can get in sight (because of a pleathora of bugreports about missing those action-blockers) but not take focus (nor switch the Desktop, we *never* switch the desktop implicitly - you need a user or force activation)
The patch is awaiting any comment since over a year, though.

(In reply to Jan Kundrát from comment #9)
> According to your report, Windows happens to work differently (and the new
> KWin in Plasma5 shares this behavior). That might explain why it's a
> high-profile blocker issue for you, and "meh, so what" for Thomas and me.

You assumed it was a Windows-only report while in fact I also experienced similar problems under Fedora x64 LXDE.

Otherwise, I agree with the course of action you want to take.

(In reply to Thomas Lübking from comment #10)
> The popup is modal on Linux as well, gmail is rotating their keys "like
> hell" (ie. indeed happens once a week for me - but I've *never* seen that
> happen while I was logged in. *never* 

You may be right. In this case my experience is limited and I may have remembered wrong. I made this report to take it off my mind, perhaps too quickly.

> That's why I believe it happens for
> dis- and autoreconnects), whether the entire thing is "annoying", a nuisance
> or actually valuable information strongly relies on its frequency, I've no
> idea how "often pops up messages telling that it can't connect" do NOT
> indicate broken core functionality (heck, you're IMAP client isn't talking
> to the server - that means it's not doing anything) and I frankly cannot
> read the least sense into the tabbox mentioning on the end.

I'm no expert in telecommunications, but I have a mobile phone which often 'talks to the server', but also often fails to do so (lack of connection, range etc.). It doesn't show a popup every 30 minutes or so that it 'lost some packages', 'connection is wacky' etc. Please treat this as an analogy and what an average user has grown to expect from technology.

> PS, @msjasinski
> I'll assume that you're English is not very good and that you do not
> actually know the meaning of terms like "casuistry" - I suggest to use a
> simple variant of English where you're aware of your made statements (it
> does not apply - notably since I didn't reason anything itfp. - nor did you
> describe it) which otherwise could easily be taken as an insult.

As you say "YOU'RE English is not very good". :D

You claimed you didn't have an opinion, and then you gave it. Casuistry or not, for sure it is a contradiction (at least in two-valued logic!).

But I don't want to start a flame war, so now I'm shutting up now. :) Peace! You're doing a good job, so keep at it.