Can we have a quick replacement for the bugfix release on Thursday, October 1st  ?

At this point a simple revert of the icon would also be an improvement. 

This issue is important, so I'd like to see this resolved quickly.

I can delete the icon from Plasma 5.4 brunch if you like

Hi Andreas,

Yes I think that deleting the current breeze Marble icon and using the previous official Marble logo icon for now is the right thing to do.
I know that  the style of our official Marble icon will look out of place.
And as a former big contributor to the KDE artwork I can imagine that this is a painful step.
But I don't see much of a way around it. And I hope that we'll quickly find a better solution.

Thanks for your hard work!

Torsten

I removed the marble icon from Plasma 5.4 brunch in master the icon is still there so the bug is still open.

I also add some of the marble action icons to master. So when marble is ready for KF5 you will have Breeze and Breeze-dark action icons.

https://quickgit.kde.org/?p=breeze.git&a=commit&h=5d273ab9de07584ace71030e515af83972983f1d

So what is the plan for the breeze action icons on the Windows and Mac platform?

As for the application icon: it would be cool if you could preserve the original shapes a bit more like you did with the Qt logo or the amarok icon here: http://scr3.golem.de/screenshots/1508/kde_plasma_5.4/thumb620/kde-image10430.png

(In reply to Torsten Rahn from comment #5)
> So what is the plan for the breeze action icons on the Windows and Mac
> platform?

no plan for other Plattform. what you ship on Windows mac, ... is in your source code. if you say breeze fits better than the icons now I can copy the breeze icons into your source code.

in libreoffice osx ship breeze by default and in Windows tango. we dont change anything in your source for breeze in KDE.

I don't know how you ship marble on other platforms but all breeze-icons have about 2mb in an gz.tar file (excluding app icons, you don't need them). The oxygen icon set are about 160mb.

As for usage of icons in a KDE/Plasma 5.x environment: We definetely want to use Breeze icons there to have Marble integrated smoothly visually into the environment. 

For the Windows and Mac version there are two primary aspects we focus on:
* The packages size should be kept low (ideally the whole package size of the full Marble package shouldn't exceed around 30 MB).
* Our UI should integrate well with the host system. this means that widgets and icons used should not have a completely alien look and feel.

In addition to that we want to keep Marble's appearance as consistent as reasonably possible across platforms.

As a result we distribute only those icons which we actually need for Marble with our Qt-only version. So far we were pretty happy with the Oxygen iconset since it integrated relatively well with Windows XP - Windows 10 icons. We haven't made any decision yet whether we want to ship icons from the Breeze icon set as action icons with the Windows and Mac package.
In order to decide that we still need to evaluate how well these icons integrate into the other platforms - that hasn't been done yet at all. And we still need to actually try how it will look.

Personally I'm not using KDE/Plasma 5.x yet. But from what I've seen the monochromatic nature of the action icons and its style will play a role in that decision. By going monochrome the design of good looking vector icons has become about as tough and difficult as creating a good decent font typeface. And creating a decent font typeface is something that is really hard. To be honest based on what I've seen of the monochromatic icon parts of the Breeze iconset (but my personaly opinion isn't the only thing that counts): I don't think that those icons live up to high typographic/iconographic standards yet (also compared with e.g. iOS icons of the same kind). I think they still fall behind in terms of proportions and stroke vividness. From what I've seen last they are still a bit too wiry, geometrical and could still be improved in terms of proportions relative to each other when presented in a group. But I've noticed that this quality has improved recently and I know how hard it is to maintain and create a whole matching iconset from scratch - so my confidence that this will further improve during the next months is high.

"[...] of good looking vector icons has become about as tough [...]" should just read "[...] of good looking icons has become about as tough [...]"

(In reply to Torsten Rahn from comment #0)

> - For legal reasons: It most likely violates a trademark of at least one
> other company (just show the icon to another person and ask which
> application it's supposed to resemble ...)

Maybe the marble team should consider to create an all new icon? The original marble compass icon also has the same problem, it looks like it's the icon for a certain browser. How about the globe (with stand/mounting) instead of the compass? The current breeze icon looks more like a globe with mounting than a compass and therefore looks less like the certain browser icon (IMHO) and I associate it more with marble than I do with the original icon...

Janet: This is not just about an icon but about a logo (which has more requirements). 
We've used our Marble Logo successfully since about 10 years now and during that time it has worked very well for us: It was originally created by our brilliant artist Nuno Pinheiro and it was carefully chosen in careful consideration with regard to aspects like uniqueness, ability to properly convey our message, recognition, legal aspects, etc. . And at this point there is no reason for us - the Marble authors - to change it. Of course if somebody comes along with a logo proposal that works so much better for us that we see a huge benefit for a logo change (and the breeze icon certainly does not qualify for that) then we would have reasons for reconsideration. However the latter has not happened so far. 

But this bugreport is not about our official logo. 
It's about an issue with the breeze icon representation - so let's get back to that.

Your logo and your requirements for the icon are in conflict with the Breeze icon guidelines, specially these two:

> - The continent watermark has to stay blue in the same way as for the Marble logo
> - The compass has to be tilted in a similar way (sorry, guys). 

The pattern of the needle and the orientation are not an issue. Those can be kept in the icon. 

The color of the water isn't a shade of blue that's used in other icons and neither is it a shade that's in the palettes used for the icons.

No icon in Breeze is tilted.

> We've used our Marble Logo successfully since about 10 years now and during that time it has worked very well for us [...]

I'm not going to say that you should change your logo every 6 months, but, 10 years is a LOT of time to not make a change, or even an update.

> The color of the water isn't a shade of blue that's used in other icons 
> and neither is it a shade that's in the palettes used for the icons.

I didn't ask you to use the same shade of the blue. You can use your own shades of 
blue as you like. (I said "You can use breeze colors and breeze-style pen strokes.")
I just asked you not to change a given color e.g. from blue to green or from blue to gray.

> No icon in Breeze is tilted.

Then explain to me the Qt logo which _obviously_ is the tilted representation of a white
tilted Qt text (yes, even the "t" is tilted)  shown on top of a tilted partially rounded Qt-green rectangle.
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/86/Example_of_KDE_Breeze_icons.png
You guys even shaded the front border of the green background so that it looks more 
3D-ish. 

That being said: What are you going to do if a _logo_ of an application doesn't 
meet your icon style guide? What would you do with the "Runtastic  runner"?
Straighten the perspective of the runner? 

Sorry, but that would be a delusional,  broken understanding of what icon 
guidelines are about. Icon guidelines make hard requirements to 
artwork that is not subject to branding. But they can not change 
established brands - that is not their business. In those cases you need to 
live with the "violation" of your icon guidelines and you need to become 
creative in order to dress it up so that the violation doesn't become too obvious.

As to your remark about the logo: We will not change our logo because of a 
possibly short-lived icon style (I expect the breeze icon set to survive the trend 
of times for maybe 3-5 years at max - if it lasts longer great, but I wouldn't 
count on it). That is not going to happen.
We would only change the logo if a new logo comes along that meets all our 
criteria and if it's so much better that a change is justified from our point of view.

> Then explain to me the Qt logo which _obviously_ is the tilted representation of a white
> tilted Qt text (yes, even the "t" is tilted)  shown on top of a tilted partially rounded Qt-green rectangle.
> https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/86/Example_of_KDE_Breeze_icons.png
> You guys even shaded the front border of the green background so that it looks more 
> 3D-ish. 

That is not the Qt icon in Breeze.

This is the Qt icon in Breeze: http://i.imgur.com/Y6h5g4z.png - Ken, who made the icon, changed it right after.

> That being said: What are you going to do if a _logo_ of an application doesn't 
> meet your icon style guide? What would you do with the "Runtastic  runner"?
> Straighten the perspective of the runner? 

Likely, yes. Tell them do make it more abstract too. This is not the early 00's to have logos like that.

> Sorry, but that would be a delusional,  broken understanding of what icon 
guidelines are about.

[...] The central aim of a HIG is to create a consistent experience across the environment [..]
[...] This means both applying the same visual design and creating consistent access to and behaviour of common elements of the interface as buttons and icons [...]
[...] Human interface guidelines often describe the visual design rules, including icon and window design and style. [...]


> As to your remark about the logo: We will not change our logo because of a 
> possibly short-lived icon style (I expect the breeze icon set to survive the trend 
> of times for maybe 3-5 years at max - if it lasts longer great, but I wouldn't 
> count on it). That is not going to happen.
> We would only change the logo if a new logo comes along that meets all our 
> criteria and if it's so much better that a change is justified from our point of view.


It's a comment, not a remark. I could've made a remark. Thank you too for your vote of confidence in Breeze, greatly appreciated.

Now, at this point I won't argue or discuss anymore. If you want a new icon there's guidelines available for that, you can choose to follow them or not. You can then create your own icon the way you want and ship it with Marble. I won't include it in Breeze unless it is consistent with the other icons.

Cheers.

> That is not the Qt icon in Breeze. This is the Qt icon in Breeze: http://i.imgur.com/Y6h5g4z.png - > Ken, who made the icon, changed it right after.

Whoever did that, did the right thing. 

Uri, the Breeze icon theme is not supposed to be any random icon theme where you can just paint stuff up to your personal liking (and conveniently justify it using the icon style guide that you guys designed with good intentions up to your liking).
 
Being the default icon theme in KDE comes with certain responsibilities (and this has been recognized by all prior KDE default icon themes up to my knowledge):
One of them is to _respect_ the branding guidelines of other corporations and organizations. And yes, the the branding guidelines of those entities have _higher_ authority than our Breeze icon style guide. Changing tints of colors slightly is relatively common practice to adjust for the surrounding environment (although it will result in teeth grinding for some people already). But skewing around with the _shape_ of a logo like you did with your QtCreator logo can be understood as an _insult_ and an _offense_ since you are significantly skewing and modifying the most important symbol that this corporation/organization/project wants to be identified with!  This is something that you can maybe do with a random fun icon theme that people can optionally download from some random icon download website. But you can not do this with an official icon theme that is officially published and installed by default onto every user's desktop.

> [...] The central aim of a HIG is to create a consistent experience across the environment [..] 
> [...] This means both applying the same visual design and creating consistent access to and 
> behaviour of common elements of the interface as buttons and icons [...] [...] Human interface 

I have looked at your icon guidelines and I like the close attention to detail of those guidelines.  

But that doesn't  change a bit:
This is all just the same goal as for all other icon guidelines that I've seen so far. When I worked on the first icon style guide for KDE back in 1999 I used similar wording and certainly had the same goals. And surely in your own perfect world without responsibilities you can shove down your 100%-style-guide-proof designs down the throat of everyone. In practice this doesn't work. In practice our KDE Plasma desktop is the host for several projects that are our guests on the desktop. And in such an environment our default icon theme and our icon style guide needs to treat other's Corporate Identity with respect and needs to be INTEGRATIVE. And especially being integrative is an important aspect for a community project like KDE.

This means that in doubt you need to make compromises, in doubt you need to value the Corporate Identity guidelines of the other corporation/organization/project higher than the icon style guidelines. And my suggestion in general would be: talk to the people affected before you mess around with their Corporate Indentity in a major way.

In related matters: While googling around I came across this:

http://permalink.gmane.org/gmane.comp.kde.devel.bugs/1635388

As a long-time contributor who designed the KDE Logo, contributed major parts of the icons for KDE up to KDE 3.1, who architected the mechanism behind the free desktop icon theme spec and who helped to start the Oxygen project ... as this kind of contributor I feel alarmed to see this kind of tone, treatment and the weasel-wording in that thread.

I don't want to discourage you guys - but I'd like to remind you of the responsibility you have - and that comes with a burden!

> You can then create your own icon the way you want and ship it with Marble. 
 
If I can not convince you to do it then then sure: I con do it!

the marble icon was removed from kde:breeze-icons it is not our intention to add new app icons without asking the developers BUT we don't remove an app icon cause an user say I don't like it. If one of the application developer say please respect our application icon or our trademark, we will.

Our goal is to have an look and feel for all applications and that also mean that the application icons should fit our icon guidelines.

Thanks for report this bug and start the discussion. If marble what's a new breeze app icon you are welcome.