Hi, 

after reading your, not very nice formulated, post at http://beranger.org/post/6409942136/kde4-designers-are-in-denial I tried it for myself. 

As soon as I configured the text length, which is configurable in the same dialog you already used in order to change to column view, filenames are no longer truncated (unless they are _really_ long and they would overlap the next column. The column spacing, which you also mention, is configurable in the same dialog as well. 

Of course this is not as perfect as it works in the file dialog, where the column width is automatically adjusted to the longest filename, but you might want to use this as a workaround in the meantime. 

Kind regards

Christian 

(As a sidenote: during my years as a software engineer and user of many software products, I learned that ranting and accusing other people usually does not solve any problems. Being friendly or, if you have the competence, solve such problems on your own and submitting a patch is usually way more efficient.)

*** Bug 275357 has been marked as a duplicate of this bug. ***

> (As a sidenote: during my years as a software engineer and user of
> many software products, I learned that ranting and accusing other
> people usually does not solve any problems. Being friendly or,
> if you have the competence, solve such problems on your own and
> submitting a patch is usually way more efficient.)

Thanks Christian, I fully agree.

Calling the main-developer of Dolphin as "the typical KDE blind lover reaction" in the public is really not very helpful and motivating to fix this issue ;-)

Folks,

I should apologize, but I know I'm not good at such things. (My personal blog is not to praise anything, it's to criticize everything in 3+ languages.)

First of all, knowing that Dolphin is mainly the work of a single person, the result is amazing. However. as the File Manager is a crucial part of a desktop environment, I feel I have the right to be angry, even if I don't pay anything to use KDE4.

I am too a software developer, since about 1994. I know how it is to be at the receiving end of all kind of feature requests. But in this case I am in the position of a user, of a "customer" (albeit a non-paying one).

I am using Linux since 1994, although I have registered with Linux Counter only in 1996, as #37497.

The main reason I have not used KDE4 since it was released as 4.0 and until 4.6 was out was not the important number of crashes, but the important regression in the usability of the file manager -- as compared to KDE3.5. 

My current blog is not the blog I had at the time, but some people in the Linux world know my insignificant and grumpy person, and in various places I complained about this regression.

_All_ the other _major_ DE have file managers able to show, at a single click, [at least] the following 3 (three) views:
-- icon view (a traditional view, very useful, but not always so; some FMs supplement it with a different thumbnail view);
-- detailed list view (a crucial one);
-- compact list view (very useful for very large directories/folders; until 2.24, it was missing from Nautilus).

The following FMs have these 3 views:
-- Thunar (XFCE)
-- Nautilus (GNOME)
-- Explorer (Windows XP)
-- Konqueror3 (KDE3, now defunct)
-- PCManFM (independent, commonly used in LXDE)

These views are available to switch between them quickly, immediately, usually at a single click.

Therefore, Dolphin, no matter how practical it is in all the other regards, has a major flaw in that a "compact list view" is 
(1) not available immediately, but only as a configuration option; 
(2) when available, it alters the "icon view", making this one not available until Dolphin is reconfigured.

This is unacceptable from an end-user's standpoint. The same way aseigo was accused of "arrogance" for bringing such disruptive changes to KDE4 (which, supplementary, was very instable, whereas KDE3.5 was rock-solid when 4.0 was released), the same way the current GNOME3 developers are accused of "arrogance", you have to understand (not to accept, but to understand) the fact that some users might be extremely frustrated by this regression in the functionality of the file manager of a major DE.

And Konqueror4 lacks this functionality too.

However, I don't know what resource is using the FileOpen dialog (maybe it's using a specially-configured Icon View, I can't tell), but a perfectly-looking(!!!) compact view (Short View) is available... as a default(!) view in it!

I would have expected KDE4 devs to jump into adding this as a 4th view to Dolphin, if not for admitting its usefulness, at least for consistency.

Either way, could anyone explain me: How the compact view (Short View) was considered "so very useful that it is the _default_ view in the FileOpen dialog", however "such irrelevant that Dolphin doesn't need such a view to be available in a straightforward manner"?

I used to be very attentive to what the users need when I designed applications at work. How come that KDE4 devs are ignoring what people need?

The "Column View" in Dolphin is useless to me. Maybe you wanted to attract the users of Mac's Finder, of those who miss some very old Unix file managers -- I remember the GNUstep file manager (GWorkspace) --, but I usually don't need this view. Not in the same way I need a Compact List.


Back to our sheep. Bug 275357 is _not_ an exact duplicate of this bug. Supposing the configuration of the Icon View is altered so that it doesn't trim filenames, a Compact List would still be unavailable _right away_. Switching between a classical Icon View and a true Compact List would be impossible as long as the two are based on the same component, and there is no button or menu options to facilitate a change between such 2 configurations.

I am coming from GNOME, and this is about a death foretold: GNOME3 is unusable, and GNOME2 is like WinXP, it's dying. This is why I tried to adapt to KDE4 and, since 4.6.x, I was surprised to see that KDE4 became almost as stable as KDE3.5.x was, and more and more usable.

However, I am considering to possibly stop using Linux on my laptop, simply because KDE4 is the _only_ major DE whose FM lacks a crucial functionality in my view. And XFCE (whose Thunar has this ability) and LXDE (whose PCManFM...) are not quite what I would expect for a Desktop (not Server) use in the 21st century.

KDE4 is the best DE so far, the DE who appeals the most to Windows users (learning curve practically zero), however at no point in the design ergonomics was properly addressed, and the need for a Compact List was disregarded. Except maybe for Mac's Finder, all the other FM have it: are those users really idiots? Or the designers of those FMs were implementing something extravagant? Really? 

Konqueror3 was indeed too complex -- like the Windows Explorer, it had too many views, and even more. But Dolphin is too simple with regards to this aspect.

The KDE4 _developers_ are its _owners_. There is no customer to deliver to (the users are _not_ owners, they have never paid for it). They are full Masters of the KDE Universe, they do what they consider appropriate, and reject what they consider useless. Herr Peter Penz, you are the _owner_ of Dolphin. You created it, you are improving it, you are making it loved or hated by dozens of millions of users. This brings a certain responsibility.

Could I please have two straight answers, if this is not too much to ask for?

1. Is there any chance to have quick access to 3 views (4, with Columns View) in Dolphin? I.e. a "Short View" (to name it as in FileOpen), an Icon View (with large icons, _independently configured_), and a Detailed View, _or_ should I try to fork Dolphin for my own use? (Otherwise I should probably stop using Linux "on the desktop"; I am too tired of exposing various usability issues since 2005 and always getting WONTFIX; after all, Windows Explorer has a lot to offer, ergonomically speaking).

2. If you don't ever intend to implement such a feature (never ever, I mean; not for KDE 4.8 or 5.0), could you please, please expose your rationale as to how this is *not* inconsistent to consider as _the most useful_ view in FileOpen a configuration that is considered as "unimportant" in Dolphin?


I hope you will consider my abrupt way of expressing my views as a sincere inquest. I am too tired to be accused of "trolling" (I'm also considering stopping using Linux specifically because most Linux enthusiasts are too jumpily labeling any critique as "trolling". I prefer a professional approach. When this is about ergonomics, it's about ergonomics.)

You should remember, of course, how much criticized was KDE4 KickOff a few years ago, as opposed to the traditional KDE3 Kicker. There were huge complaints, yet nowadays most people are used with this concept, possibly also because of similar designs in Vista and Win7. Nevertheless, there are KDE4 distros who either default to a traditional KDE3-style menu, or they offer to configure this behavior during the installation -- which means there are still people in need for the "old style" (FYI, I'm using KDE4 in Mageia 1.0 with plain, old-style menus, and I am happy this way, because I can search in KRunner).

Kickoff criticism was just an example that how the _developers_ feel and how the _users_ feel is not the same thing.



Since I managed to get you angry, maybe I could still get an answer though.

Thank you.

(@Christian Fuchs: I would merrily help, should I be able to. I am not familiar with Qt4 and KDE4. This could be learned, sure thing. But would Peter Penz accept patches (i) written by someone not familiar with KDE4 and (ii) that would add functionality that has not been decided upon as useful?)

> 1. Is there any chance to have quick access to 3 views
> (4, with Columns View) in Dolphin?

Yes, there is. I'm currently working on an improved view-engine (more speed, more flexibility) for the 4.8 release and I'll provide such a button for that release.

Oops, amazing! Thank you!

(Given the KDE4 complexity, I don't even know where to look for the component that implements the FileOpen/FileSave dialog. I'd be curious if it shares something with Dolphin, and if there's a process within the KDE team to decide on UI & ergnomics. These 2 aspects -- File Management and FileOpen/FileSave dialog -- are crucial for the user experience, and poor synchronization between the 2 can also be noticed at some point in other DEs, such as Nautilus.)

"As soon as I configured the text length, which is configurable in the same
dialog you already used in order to change to column view"...

Christian, you meant "Text width". I had to look again and again until I realized that "Text width" actually means "Label width"/"Column width".

This setting is very confusing, I would never understand what it's supposed to mean. No other file manager has such a setting!!! (at most, they might have something like "Use compact layout" with regards to icon view.)

It is not "text" width. Text width is font metrics. 

If anyone thought that Dolphin is simpler to use than other File Managers... (no offense please).

(In reply to comment #8)
> "As soon as I configured the text length, which is configurable in the same
> dialog you already used in order to change to column view"...
> 
> Christian, you meant "Text width". I had to look again and again until I
> realized that "Text width" actually means "Label width"/"Column width".

I only had a german dolphin at hand, but I was sure that you'll find the setting I am referring to. 

Anyway, you should be able to use this as a workaround until you have KDE 4.8 with the option you wanted. 

Kind regards, 

Christian

Absolutely, Christian. But this means I won't be using the icon view with "real icons" as long as I need a compact list. And not having "real icons" means I won't have "real thumbnails" unless I use the zoom slider back and forth. Sigh... (I miss Nautilus. It's dumber and uglier, but it had the right views.)

Aware of it, that's why I called it a workaround. 

But since konqueror and dolphin do not share settings you could use a filemanager profile in konqueror if you need the icons and dolphin for the column view. Still a workaround, but as 4.8 won't come out soon you can try to make the best out of the situation in the meantime. 

Kind regards, 

Christian

(In reply to comment #11)

> But since konqueror and dolphin do not share settings 

Thank you for the suggestion!

However, since Konqueror4 is very much "dumbified" as compared to Konqueror3, I find it suitable only for Internet or network (FTP, SSH) browsing. It lacks functionality that Dolphin offers! -- namely, Folders Panel (F7), Places Panel (F9). 

Definitely, once you're using KDE4, you _need_ Dolphin.

Created attachment 61058 [details]
Huge is not enough, Dolphn keeps truncating (FileOpen does not)

Peter, Christian, this is worse than expected. Even with Huge "text size" and no column spacing, Dolphin Icon View truncates some very long file names, whereas File Open _never_ truncates!

@Radu-Cristian: I'm aware about this - the file open dialog does a dynamic adjustment of the width while Dolphin currently only supports a grid mode. I'm also planning to fix this in 4.8 as part of the new view-engine... So as summary in 4.8 there will be:
- A custom button/mode for this view
- A dynamic calculation of the column-width so that no filename gets clipped

(In reply to comment #14)

Thank you, thank you, thank you! I wanted to make sure that you (as apparently the burden is mainly on yourself) are aware of this issue!

(GUI file management is a crucial feature of a DE, IMHO.)

- A new view-mode "compact view" is available.
- Filenames don't get clipped anymore

See http://ppenz.blogspot.com/2011/08/introducing-dolphin-20.html for more details.