Version: (using KDE 4.2.1) OS: Linux Installed from: Ubuntu Packages Add kuser, ksystemlog, kinfocenter and ksysguard as kcm modules to be accessible via KDE4 system-settings. As brainstormed here: http://www.kde-apps.org/content/show.php/New+KDE4+System-settings+Modules+-+Idea?content=100915 Thanks
> kuser This is already requested in bug #153354. > ksystemlog, kinfocenter and ksysguard Those three have exactly nothing to do with systemsettings. You don't configure anything with them, but just display data.
(In reply to comment #1) > > kuser > > This is already requested in bug #153354. > > > ksystemlog, kinfocenter and ksysguard > > Those three have exactly nothing to do with systemsettings. You don't configure > anything with them, but just display data. Hello Mr Pino Toscano 1. I've just received your bugzillas's answer and decided to write my comment. So let's type: > > > kuser > > This is already requested in bug #153354. Ok, my mistake. 2.You have a right with this >You don't > configure anything with them, but just display data. but with this > Those three have exactly nothing to do with systemsettings. you're wrong. I think that these have a lot with system and system- settings because they help us monitor our systems! ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ So maybe add in system-settings a new category for example 'monitoring' and add these: ksystemlog, kinfocenter and ksysguard into it. I think this my last sentence written as a simple kde4 user (I am just a general doctor of medicine not a programmer) is a very good idea! ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I mean here that users need just a launchers to ksystemlog, kinfocenter and ksysguard visible in system-settings not a special kcm modules (is it possible to add only the launchers?) Conclusion: I think that the point of view of kde developer in this matter is that this is unnecessary but when a new kde user starts his adventure with linux and kde4 he wants to have everything in one place (but not searching the kmenu to find one application through hundreds). 3.It would be great to have as system-settings a module similar to bum (boot up manager for gnome) to manage system services run while system booting (not only kde services) and... 4. a module to show partitions, mounted hard and removable drives, optic drives and manage them trough system-settings. What about 3 and 4? Are they submited as a feature requests? Thanks for Your attention. Darek
(In reply to comment #2) > >You don't > > configure anything with them, but just display data. > > but with this > > > Those three have exactly nothing to do with systemsettings. > > you're wrong. I think that these have a lot with system and system- settings > because they help us monitor our systems! Minotoring is not configuring. System settings is about configuring KDE and related parts of the system, not for monitoring it. Even what is labelled "System" in systemsettings is there for -configuring- the system, not for providing other services. What does kinfocenter configures? As the name says, it just provides -information- about the system. Same for ksystemlog (which is just a log viewer), and for ksysguard. > I mean here that users need just a launchers to ksystemlog, kinfocenter and > ksysguard visible in system-settings not a special kcm modules (is it possible > to add only the launchers?) > > Conclusion: I think that the point of view of kde developer in this matter is > that this is unnecessary but when a new kde user starts his adventure with > linux and kde4 he wants to have everything in one place (but not searching the > kmenu to find one application through hundreds). That does not imply making everything in one just because "it feels better". Mixing different things with totally purpouses (configuring vs just viewing data) makes exactly the opposite effect, ie configusion about "what is doing what". > 4. a module to show partitions, mounted hard and removable drives, optic drives > and manage them trough system-settings. There's the KDE application 'partitionmanager' for this.
I agree completely, all system settings should be accessible from one place, even though viewers should be placed in a new category. Ideally there'd be no need for distros' control panels (I'll use SUSE's Yast as an example): the user should be able to get to partition managment, package management, firewall (like Fedora and SUSE), printers and scanners, sound card, gaming devices, system file editing, NFS/Samba configuration, modems etc. all from one place. I'm not saying distros shouldn't build the tools, or that KDE should build them, just that there be shortcuts to them from System Settings and from Gnome's control panel (I've never used Gnome so I can't say if this already done). Maybe even a Time Machine-like utility if one is ever created. KDE already has its own display manager and KGRUB accessible from systemsettings, that's a start. (In reply to comment #2) > (In reply to comment #1) > > > kuser > > > > This is already requested in bug #153354. > > > > > ksystemlog, kinfocenter and ksysguard > > > > Those three have exactly nothing to do with systemsettings. You don't configure > > anything with them, but just display data. > > Hello Mr Pino Toscano > > 1. I've just received your bugzillas's answer and decided to write my comment. > So let's type: > > > > > > kuser > > > > This is already requested in bug #153354. > > Ok, my mistake. > > 2.You have a right with this > > >You don't > > configure anything with them, but just display data. > > but with this > > > Those three have exactly nothing to do with systemsettings. > > you're wrong. I think that these have a lot with system and system- settings > because they help us monitor our systems! > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > So maybe add in system-settings a new category for example 'monitoring' and > add these: ksystemlog, kinfocenter and ksysguard into it. > I think this my last sentence written as a simple kde4 user (I am just a > general doctor of medicine not a programmer) is a very good idea! > ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > I mean here that users need just a launchers to ksystemlog, kinfocenter and > ksysguard visible in system-settings not a special kcm modules (is it possible > to add only the launchers?) > > Conclusion: I think that the point of view of kde developer in this matter is > that this is unnecessary but when a new kde user starts his adventure with > linux and kde4 he wants to have everything in one place (but not searching the > kmenu to find one application through hundreds). > > 3.It would be great to have as system-settings a module similar to bum (boot up > manager for gnome) to manage system services run while system booting (not only > kde services) and... > > 4. a module to show partitions, mounted hard and removable drives, optic drives > and manage them trough system-settings. > > What about 3 and 4? Are they submited as a feature requests? > > > Thanks for Your attention. > Darek
@Angel Blue01: first of all, please don't quote all the text if you don't actually reply to it. > I agree completely, all system settings should be accessible from one place, Isn't this already done? > even though viewers should be placed in a new category. Correct, they are in own applications already.
(In reply to comment #5) > @Angel Blue01: > first of all, please don't quote all the text if you don't actually reply to > it. Sorry about that, I was thinking of the super-long replys I'm used to from E-mail. > > I agree completely, all system settings should be accessible from one place, > > Isn't this already done? > > > even though viewers should be placed in a new category. > > Correct, they are in own applications already. Yes but to to the user these applications are all disconnected, you can't get to them from systemsettings, as this wish requests; they don't even resemble the other tools that are in systemsettings, although that sounds like another issue entirely. I think we have different ideas of what a "system setting" means.
> I think we have different ideas of what a "system setting" means. Yes, especially when systemsettings has *setting* being explicit (because it is what you can do with it: set something), while things like ksystemlog and ksysguard have exactly nothing to "set".
(In reply to comment #3) > (In reply to comment #2) (In reply to comment #3) Hello again 1. >What does kinfocenter configures? As the name says, it just provides >-information- about the system. >Same for ksystemlog (which is just a log viewer), and for ksysguard. OK we know what these applications are and what they do. 2. >That does not imply making everything in one just because "it feels better". >Mixing different things with totally purpouses (configuring vs just viewing >data) makes exactly the opposite effect, ie configusion about "what is doing >what". To set something good you have to monitor something to know what is needed to be set and how. The first thing is that one is connected to the other so I think adding monitoring category in system-settings will not cause the mess because every people using linux has to know how to read so monitoring means monitoring (monitoring is not configuring but it is connected to, very close) as the rest is also divided into other parts and each part of them has its own name! The second thing it is not mixing - why? Because it is named 'monitoring' and it is sorted and grouped as the rest. 3. >There's the KDE application 'partitionmanager' for this. I know that partitionmanager is being developed but we are talking about system-settings modules and partitionmanager is another program and till now it has no system-settings module as I know. Thanks Darek
(In reply to comment #7) > > I think we have different ideas of what a "system setting" means. > > Yes, especially when systemsettings has *setting* being explicit (because it is > what you can do with it: set something), while things like ksystemlog and > ksysguard have exactly nothing to "set". One question. Is any chance to change something in this case or there is no point to discuss this? I mean every argument from user - your answer - no? Maybe voting trough kde-apps or something, any other method to convince what users prefer or kde team is too conservative? ;-) Ok, conservative is wrong word - kde4 is one big change ;-) Darek
(In reply to comment #7) > Yes, especially when systemsettings has *setting* being explicit (because it is > what you can do with it: set something), while things like ksystemlog and > ksysguard have exactly nothing to "set". Ah, OK I'm thinking in terms of "system configuration" the noun: any setting, whether it can be changed or not (hardware is part of the system "configuration"), that is not about a specific program (say Dolphin's settings wouldn't belong in systemsettings). Package managment is a "system configuration", it affects what one can do with the system, viewing logs reveals information about the system's configuration/settings (helping point out whether something is wrong or not) in the past.
Isn't that what voting for an issue in Bugzilla is for? (I'm still pretty new at this) :-) (In reply to comment #9) > One question. Is any chance to change something in this case or there is no > point to discuss this? I mean every argument from user - your answer - no? > > Maybe voting trough kde-apps or something, any other method to convince what > users prefer or kde team is too conservative? ;-) Ok, conservative is wrong > word - kde4 is one big change ;-) > > Darek
(In reply to comment #10 #11 ) > Isn't that what voting for an issue in Bugzilla is for? (I'm still pretty new > at this) :-) We both are newbies here ;-) Very interesting site let's vote here and there ;-) Plese visit http://www.kde-apps.org/content/show.php/New+KDE4+System-settings+Modules+-+Idea?content=100915 in 10 minutes ;-). Darek
> >That does not imply making everything in one just because "it feels better". > >Mixing different things with totally purpouses (configuring vs just viewing > >data) makes exactly the opposite effect, ie configusion about "what is doing > >what". > > To set something good you have to monitor something to know what is needed to > be set and how. Examples? > The first thing is that one is connected to the other so I > think adding monitoring category in system-settings will not cause the mess > because every people using linux has to know how to read So you are saying that every new Linux user *has* to know about a) system logs b) system processes and then we complain "Linux is hard to use" just because we have three separate applications, each tied for a specific use? This won't work at all. Weekend users should not need ksysguard and ksystemlog at all; who really need to use any of them would not bother at all opening a separate application, that is *tied* to that, and not a "generic container" of whatever has "system" in its name. > I know that partitionmanager is being developed but we are talking about > system-settings modules and partitionmanager is another program and till now it > has no system-settings module as I know. Assuming partitionmanager is a kcm: while you do real partition work (eg resizing, creation, etc), you cannot do any other configuration from the same application. IMHO this should really bad.
(In reply to comment #13) Hello I was waiting for such a question ;-) Let's rock 1111. > > To set something good you have to monitor something to know what is > > needed to be set and how. > > Examples? a) Ksystemlog. 1.Kgrubeditor and kernel. You see in kgrubeditor wich kernel is active as a booting one and then in ksystemlog you monitor it's logs because of your system hung or you want to check kernel logs and you can check in kgrubeditor witch kernel is booted as you prefer. 2.Samba - you set samba shares trough system-settings, not working, view logs trough ksyslog then repair samba. b).Ksysguard. 1.Sometimes your kde services runing in the kde4's background are crashing, you can check in system-settings services manager which kde services are set to run then run ksysguard to check are they are present or crashed. 2.Your system is slow, because of too many kwin effects - you chceck in ksysguard properties and info about your system performance and then switches off some kwin effects for better performance c).Kinfocenter . 1.Your graphic card is not working, no kwin 3d effects, you can check in kinfocenter opengl info - is it installed and present there. Then install drivers and set kwin working after X restart. 2.Audio settings problem, you are newbie, you don't know how to get your sound card info via command line, you open kinfocenter get there info about sound card or graphic card, check out forum then install for example oss or fglrx then configure it trough system-setting You want more? 2222. > > The first thing is that one is connected to the other so I > > think adding monitoring category in system-settings will not cause the > > mess because every people using linux has to know how to read > > So you are saying that every new Linux user *has* to know about > a) system logs > b) system processes > and then we complain "Linux is hard to use" just because we have three > separate applications, each tied for a specific use? This won't work at > all. Weekend users should not need ksysguard and ksystemlog at all; who > really need to use any of them would not bother at all opening a separate > application, that is *tied* to that, and not a "generic container" of > whatever has "system" in its name. a) Has to know how to read (READ WORDS) not has to know about system logs, but if earlier the newbie will discover system logs - better for him, don't you think so? b) Know about System processes - yes, alt control delete in windows and intelligent people can do with windows taskmanager.exe tabs? So by the analogy lets find something familiar to taskmanager.exe in linux the newbie thinks. You are wrong ksysguard was one of the first application I started to find when I first installed Mandrake 10.0 few years ago (my first was Red hat 9 with gnome ;-) - I miss the hat by the way ;) You are talking about weekend users. Weekend users use windows. They are frightened when I call linux ;-). If you start with linux - you have two ways fight with small system problems ;-) or give it away. If you stay with linux sooner or later you will have to use ksysguard, then kinfocenter and then ksyslog. Ksyslog I think at the end of the list, why at the end, because newbie doesn't know that there is such a thing as ksyslog. If ksyslog will be visible in system-settings the newbie may start to be interested with this, discovering after some time how useful tool it is, even without options to set settings! ;-) > Assuming partitionmanager is a kcm: while you do real partition work (eg > resizing, creation, etc), you cannot do any other configuration from the > same application. IMHO this should really bad. I meant in my post that there is no system-settings entry for partitionmanager. It is installed on my system. Thanks Darek
(In reply to comment #14) > a) Ksystemlog. > > 1.Kgrubeditor and kernel. You see in kgrubeditor wich kernel is active as a > booting one and then in ksystemlog you monitor it's logs because of your system > hung or you want to check kernel logs and you can check in kgrubeditor witch > kernel is booted as you prefer. > 2.Samba - you set samba shares trough system-settings, not working, view logs > trough ksyslog then repair samba. Logs should have a quick way to start the application that coud be used to fix the error, Samba's a good example. > b).Ksysguard. > > 1.Sometimes your kde services runing in the kde4's background are crashing, you > can check in system-settings services manager which kde services are set to run > then run ksysguard to check are they are present or crashed. And KDE already has a service manager in systemsettings, conveniently nearby from ksysguard if they are both in systemsettings. > c).Kinfocenter . > > 1.Your graphic card is not working, no kwin 3d effects, you can check in > kinfocenter opengl info - is it installed and present there. Then install > drivers and set kwin working after X restart. > 2.Audio settings problem, you are newbie, you don't know how to get your sound > card info via command line, you open kinfocenter get there info about sound > card or graphic card, check out forum then install for example oss or fglrx > then configure it trough system-setting > Even better would be if distros put their hardware management tools in systemsettings, so it's just another click to get to the right program to configure them. systemsettings already has a display manager, but kinfocenter provides the big picture of your whole system -it might be that your BIOS settings needs to be changed (in CMOS setup of course) to give more RAM to video memory usage (if you have an onboard video card). > a) Has to know how to read (READ WORDS) not has to know about system logs, but > if earlier the newbie will discover system logs - better for him, don't you > think so? Yes! And there wouldn't be a need to go anywhere unfamiliar to find the logs, by sharing systemsettings as the starting point, that's one less barrier to getting the user into a part of the system's configuration that might be new to them. > b) Know about System processes - yes, alt control delete in windows and > intelligent people can do with windows taskmanager.exe tabs? So by the analogy > lets find something familiar to taskmanager.exe in linux the newbie thinks. Windows doesn't have taskmngr.exe in its Control Panel, but as a Windows admin I've sometimes wished it was, next to all the other system tools. > You are wrong ksysguard was one of the first application I started to find when > I first installed Mandrake 10.0 few years ago (my first was Red hat 9 with > gnome ;-) - I miss the hat by the way ;) It was mine too when I started using Linux a year and a half ago, programs crash in all OSs, task manager is the type of program that needs to be easy to find. > You are talking about weekend users. Weekend users use windows. They are > frightened when I call linux ;-). If you start with linux - you have two ways > fight with small system problems ;-) or give it away. If you stay with linux > sooner or later you will have to use ksysguard, then kinfocenter and then > ksyslog. Ksyslog I think at the end of the list, why at the end, because newbie > doesn't know that there is such a thing as ksyslog. If ksyslog will be visible > in system-settings the newbie may start to be interested with this, discovering > after some time how useful tool it is, even without options to set settings! > ;-) Exactly, as I said above, having them all together is one less barrier to discovering these tools. It definitly helped me when I first used Windows 2000 that the Windows log viewer was right next to the service manager and the task scheduler (equivalent to cron). > > > Assuming partitionmanager is a kcm: while you do real partition work (eg > > resizing, creation, etc), you cannot do any other configuration from the > > same application. IMHO this should really bad. > > I meant in my post that there is no system-settings entry for partitionmanager. > It is installed on my system. And this one too is also found next to the log viewer and other system tools in Windows. To reiterate there should be one place to go for all the system utility needs. There's another wishlist item here on bugs.kde.org for make systemsettings more of a shortcuts based system where applications can put shortcuts to themselves right where the user expects to find them.
General technical discussion like this should be on mailing lists. This is something that involves major changes to the codebase and doesn't sound desirable. Flames should go to /dev/null.
Your Windows comparison is interesting and explains why this bug was closed : - Windows is not a Desktop Environment, it's an operating system. The configuration tools allow setting the whole system. - KDE is a Desktop Environment, the configuration modules in systemsettings allow changing the way _KDE_ is working. That's why I don't think KUser should have a KCM. (Kgrubeditor is a 3rd party application, that's why there's one.) About ksystemlog, kinfocenter and ksysguard, those 3 applications have no effect on the KDE settings and have nothing to do in systemsettings. Read the comment #1 again.
(In reply to comment #17) > - Windows is not a Desktop Environment, it's an operating system. The > configuration tools allow setting the whole system. > > - KDE is a Desktop Environment, the configuration modules in systemsettings > allow changing the way _KDE_ is working. > > That's why I don't think KUser should have a KCM. (Kgrubeditor is a 3rd party > application, that's why there's one.) What about the KDM KCM -to users KDM isn't part of KDE, its part of "the system"? Samba isn't a KDE application either but there's a KCM in systemsettings. There's a display KCM. You can change the date and time, very much a system setting, in KDE as well. > About ksystemlog, kinfocenter and ksysguard, those 3 applications have no > effect on the KDE settings and have nothing to do in systemsettings. Read the > comment #1 again. I think the problem is that I, and I admit I seem to be the only one, that don't see the main control panel as by nature DE-specific, non-application settings including users, passwords, packages, as well as KDE settings should be accessible from the same place. The division that at least SUSE makes with Yast of "system settings" (which imply root) vs DE-specific settings (which are user-specific) is very artifical to me as a user, if I was a newbie to computers this would very very confusing. I installed Gnome to get a sense on comparison for what a DE control panel has, and at least in SUSE, its control center is a mix of "system" and "user" settings. Granted, it does not have any equivalents of kinfocenter or ksysguard, but I might not have these utilities installed. Could someone confirm if this is just a SUSE layout please?
(In reply to comment #16) > General technical discussion like this should be on mailing lists. This is > something that involves major changes to the codebase and doesn't sound > desirable. > > Flames should go to /dev/null. Thanks for pointing that out, its not clear to me what should be on the KDE forums, on kde-look, Bugzilla or a mailing list. I think I'll take my share of this discussion to the mailing list once I learn how to use it, I'm not familiar with mailing lists.
(In reply to comment #16) Hello everybody 1. >--- Comment #16 from A. Spehr <zahl transbay net> 2009-03-15 00:50:34 --- >General technical discussion like this should be on mailing lists. This is >something that involves major changes to the codebase and doesn't sound >desirable. >Flames should go to /dev/null. I think KDE4 developers should be interested to start such a mailing list, not the users, if kde4 developers are interested in users opinion of course. I don't think it would be such a big codebase change that we should stop discuss that. There is even no positive decision from kde developers about that and you are talking about code. >--- Comment #17 from Christophe Giboudeaux <cgiboudeaux gmail com> 2009-03-15 01:01:17 --- >Your Windows comparison is interesting and explains why this bug was closed : >- Windows is not a Desktop Environment, it's an operating system. The >configuration tools allow setting the whole system. >- KDE is a Desktop Environment, the configuration modules in systemsettings >allow changing the way KDE is working. >That's why I don't think KUser should have a KCM. (Kgrubeditor is a 3rd party >application, that's why there's one.) And samba in system-settings? Is it kde? Power management - it influences on whole system, not only kde4 don't you think so? Also third party? Mentioned KDM it is not only kde application, you can access f.e. gnome trough KDM. And KDM is present in system settings. Or maybe for the idea that it's third party let's remove it? Kuser is very useful tool, for advanced users is no problem to add and remove users and groups via commands but newbies? Please stop for a moment being advanced user. If you not using kuser or don't want to start it trough system-settings I suggest to leave in kuser.desktop file an entry for system and it will be still visible in kmenu. >About ksystemlog, kinfocenter and ksysguard, those 3 applications have no >effect on the KDE settings and have nothing to do in systemsettings. Read the >comment #1 again. Again idealistic sentence. Nothing to set so it must be removed. I think the most important thing is in this matter is that it is useful to have them in system-settings. See my new mockup at kde-apps.org. I think it is no mess with other settings and it is written 'Monitoring'. Monitoring means seeing not setting but as I wrote before in my six examples it is connected very close to settings. I think developers should create KDE4 most simple and useful environment for the new users but not stay in conservative opinions that 'I am advanced user, I like it and I don't want simple changes, because I will not use them' but maybe the others will? More users (newbies, even those called weekendusers) - more faster open source will grow. Darek
- KDM belongs to KDE - Samba affects the way the kio_smb will work - The power manager kcm will tweak KDE performances depending on the battery state (don't just look at the icons, also read the text). These settings only affect the user. How does Kuser affects the KDE usage ? The answer is quite simple, it doesn't. Also note that adding a user, group, changing the groups a user belongs to, his home directory or login shell is _not_ something a novice user should do. KUser won't change anything, a novice user has the same risk to become unable to open a session. > I think the most important thing is in this matter is that it is useful to have them in system-settings. and I guess you never heard about usability. system Monitoring has nothing to do in KDE System Settings. Ask your distribution to provide such tools or choose one which already provides such tools (eg. OpenSuse).
*** Bug 339054 has been marked as a duplicate of this bug. ***