Version: (using KDE 4.0.0) Ok, I must say I largely prefered kcontrol, but let's see how systemsettings could be made less irritating. On this wish, I will concentrate on the global organization of systemsettings, which imho aught to be rethought. 1 - Indeed, some settings are put together though they have nothing to do with each other (ok that's mostly an inheritence from kcontrol). For instance: "keyboard and mouse" - mouse part: this is mostly about how the pointing device behaves in KDE (+ cursor themes... ) - keyboard part: this is about keyboard shortcuts, not about the keyboard customization, which is in "Regional and language settings" Those two parts should obviously be separated. Other example: under "desktop" icon - "startup notification" (not sure about the translation), - "desktop effects" (very badly choosen name! I don't know if it was introduced by Compiz guys or Ubuntu guys to begin with... but well, you're not forced to keep it !), - and "Screensaver" are completely unrelated things! 2 - On the other hand, some parts should obviously be merged under one icon. For instance: the keyboard shortcuts and the configuration of khotkeys. Both deal about how to trigger some action in KDE with an input device. (btw all those things should be unified so that when we choose a shortcut for an application, we could choose indifferently a keyboard shorcut, a mouse 42-th button click, a mouse gesture, a screen corner, like in Compiz, or any other trigger provided by any input backend... but that would be for another wish !) Remark for 1- and 2-: sometimes it is hard to choose between several locations for a setting dialog, but could we not have several way to find them ? I.e.: keyboard layout should be both in keyboard configuration and in localization settings. 3 - What the heck with those 4 levels of organization ???? 1st level: general/advanced 2nd level: categories (Appearance, Personnal, ... ) 3rd level: icons 4th level: sometimes several icons in the widget on the left (like in Keyboard and Mouse) If we had a treeview like in kcontrol it would still be easy to have a global preview of all the setting dialogs... but anyway, 4 levels is a bit too much. Suggestion: - do not separate basic and advanced, but rather put everything together and add a checkbox for showing/hiding the advanced settings icons. - level 4 should be flattened into level 3. Well that would make twice as much icons in level 3, but would it really be an issue? If we could "fold categories" of level 2 (like it kcontrol), that would be no problem. We should also have more categories. - It might also be a good thing to be able to "open" a category of level 2 alone, so that we only see icons from that category (why not use a widget à la level 4, so that we can have both a config dialog and a way to navigate in neighbor dialogs in the same window ?) 4 - Last but not least, homogenize all the dialogs !!! Why sometimes do we have a "close" button à la Gnome (will it save settings ?), sometimes an "apply" button ? Well, that's all for now. I am conscious that those might be considered as several separate wishes, but can we really improve systemsettings UI without thinking globally ? And of course, those remarks say how I see things, where there might be a better answer to the current mess in systemsettings.
After all, having accessing one dialog from several categories would be a bad idea, as it would overcrowd the interface, and could make us think that those are actually several different dialogs. I'm starting to think that it is the concept of category that is flawed. All the config dialogs should instead have several tags/labels, and systemsettings should only propose "views", i.e. a sets of labels that will be displayed as categories (as it is now, we have two views : "general" and "advanced"). This system would be highly versatile: purpose driven view, hardware driven view, alphabetical view, etc. Views could be defined in a text config file, so that any advanced user can have exactly what he wants. Other use of the labels: to have a more efficient search than the search of keywords in titles.
One report = one issue, please.
There is only one issue: systemsettings lacks global organization. See it as a meta-wish, if you like (but maybe the bugzilla is not the place for that ?). The rest is only a list of possible improvements, not a precise wishlist. I suppose I could not exactly just have said "Systemsettings sucks. Make it better !". I hoped that if some good ideas in discussion would emerge, then they could be filed as separate wishes.
I definitely agree. System settings needs much better organization. The first thing that surprised me in this setup was that the cursor themes are under keyboard & mouse settings and not under appearence.... That was in kde3 too if I remember right, but... how am I supposed to find it if it's in the second tab of the mouse module? Mouse = hardware, cursors = appearence. They are unrelated. Any user would expect it to be in appearence, imho. This is only one example, but there are lots like that... (see the description :) ), I just felt I had to tell it, because it is not clearly mentioned in the description.
I'm also see spliting really similar options to two icons as a problem. For egzample there is CDDB Retrieval and CD Audio. The CDDB should be merged to CD Audio as an icon on the side panel. The same is with "Input Actions" and "Mouse & Keyboard". > 3 - What the heck with those 4 levels of organization ???? > 1st level: general/advanced > 2nd level: categories (Appearance, Personnal, ... ) > 3rd level: icons > 4th level: sometimes several icons in the widget on the left (like in Keyboard and Mouse) There is also 5th level: tabs, unfortunately The 5th level should be flatted to 4th. In most of systemsettings' applets there is a lot of space in side panel, so it would be better to move 5th level tabs to side panel. For egzample the "Notifications" applet has in the sidebar the icon "System Notification" and then tabs "Applications" and "Player Settings". Let's move these categories from tabs to sidebar and integrate "Player Settings" with "System Bell" which already is placed in the sidebar. Another problem is: There are three categories Computer Administration in general, System and Advanced User Settings in the advanced tab. In Computer Administration there are hardware options such as Keyboard & Mouse, Display, Joystick and system options such as Date & Time and Font Installer. The same is with Advanced User Settings there is Digital Camera or Audio CDs which are hardware and many other options which are software options. It would be better if there would be only two categories instead of three: 1. "Hardware" - there would be: Display, Joystick, Keyboard & Mouse (without "Cursor Theme", but with "Input Actions"), Digital Camera, Audio CD (with included CDDB), Sound, Solid. 2. "System Administration": Date & Time, Font Installer, Autostart, File Associations, KDE Resources, KDE Wallet, Nepomuk, Service Manager, Session Manager, Login Manager, Samba. Both categories should be in advenced tab.
Created attachment 27456 [details] The draft of new cleaned layout of systemsettings
I have made a draft of new cleaned layout of systemsettings. In the attached file there is a scheme of current state, new layout and description and justification of changes. I have been working on it for three hours so look at this and discuss. I'm waiting for your opinions. If you have some other changes to the new layout simply edit the file. In the bottom of the document write: "your name <email address>:" and list the changes you made in points in bottom of the document. At last attach new version of the draft. In my opinion it's the best way to improve systemsettings.
Created attachment 27457 [details] New version of the cleaned draft of the systemsettings layout Cursor Themes moved to Appearance.
After changing systemsettings layout according to the draft on the general tab there is much more space beacaouse many icons was moved to Advanced tabs. So maybe it is better to move Style, Toolbars, Colours, Icons, Fonts, Window Decoration, Cursor Theme and Splash Screen directly to Look&Feel category and ommit Appearance applet. These are the most common options so maybe it's better to have them easy accessible.
(In reply to comment #9) > After changing systemsettings layout according to the draft on the general tab > there is much more space beacaouse many icons was moved to Advanced tabs. So > maybe it is better to move Style, Toolbars, Colours, Icons, Fonts, Window > Decoration, Cursor Theme and Splash Screen directly to Look&Feel category and > ommit Appearance applet. These are the most common options so maybe it's better > to have them easy accessible. > Sory for spelling errors there should be "because" instead of "beacaouse" and "Advanced tab" instead of "Advanced tabs"
*** Bug 164204 has been marked as a duplicate of this bug. ***
*** Bug 181249 has been marked as a duplicate of this bug. ***
*** Bug 162411 has been marked as a duplicate of this bug. ***
*** Bug 164277 has been marked as a duplicate of this bug. ***
All System Settings Reorganising will be co-ordinated using this bug. The following reorganisations were proposed by other bugs. Digital camera moved to unspecified location Input actions to keyboard & mouse. Launch Notifications to Notifications Mouse cursor theme to Appearance
*** Bug 194132 has been marked as a duplicate of this bug. ***
(In reply to comment #2) > One report = one issue, please. My Bug 194132 has been just marked as duplicate, but it describes only one issue, so it's not a duplicate. I'm afraid if it will be all-in-one it will never happen or at least will be difficult to comprehend.
(In reply to comment #8) > Created an attachment (id=27457) [details] > New version of the cleaned draft of the systemsettings layout > > Cursor Themes moved to Appearance. Hmm, if I understand correctly see it's being work upon :)
This bug is being used to track all the changes, since it will be easier to look at one bug and see all changes that need to be made, rather than having to check a whole pile of different bugs across different products/components. I believe the one report = one issue was more aimed at comment #1 problem 4 since that is completely different to the rest of this bug. I am hoping to get something done about this for KDE 4.4.
(In reply to comment #19) > This bug is being used to track all the changes, since it will be easier to > look at one bug and see all changes that need to be made, rather than having to > check a whole pile of different bugs across different products/components. > > I believe the one report = one issue was more aimed at comment #1 problem 4 > since that is completely different to the rest of this bug. > > I am hoping to get something done about this for KDE 4.4. OK, I see. I'm happy it's being done :) Thanks for your work.
*** Bug 196794 has been marked as a duplicate of this bug. ***
*** Bug 196793 has been marked as a duplicate of this bug. ***
+1: SystemSetting's organization must be beter and beter!
This is being discussed at: http://forum.kde.org/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=50504 and http://lists.kde.org/?t=125455278700001&r=1&w=2 Regards
*** Bug 224884 has been marked as a duplicate of this bug. ***
To not loose any information from bug #224884, I will quote myself here: The destinction between the "Desktop" and "Appearance" systemsetting modules is certainly not clear. I always have to guess where to search and often enough I choose wrongly. Most prominent examples are desktop effects and screensaver. I do not understand why they are specific to the "desktop"... Desktop effects deal with a lot more than just what the average user might see as the desktop. It's window animation and transparency and all such things.
We are planning a Workspace/Application separation (also related to the new KDE branding). Desktop Effects will fit as a Workspace(plasma+kwin+environment) setting
System Settings has now been reorganised, further usability work is still planned to improve it.
"System Settings has now been reorganised, further usability work is still planned to improve it." "The destinction between the "Desktop" and "Appearance" systemsetting modules is certainly not clear. I always have to guess where to search and often enough I choose wrongly." I will quote an email I sent a few hours ago. ===================== If I want to customise the look of my desktop I have to go to one of those entries: Applications Appearance Workspace Appearance Desktop effects For the 24/7-scripting dudes this may be completely understandable. Applications is for Kwin, Workspace Appearance is for Plasma, Desktop Effects is for both. However, I never saw those subsystems in Windows/Mac OS....and there is a good reason for that: Because I don't care what subsystem is used and they know that. So they merge the settings. Another example: I want to add information about who I am, where I live and what my email adress is. So I go to System Settings and there are two entries with the same icon. Hmmm...let's see.....Personal Information seems to make sense. Wrong. There I can set the sources KDE uses to retrieve information. (And Desktop Search is another entry for settings how to index and search those information :S. Why not combined? It's all about the 'big info-indexing and -storage') In the end I check Account Details and I find those options I want. Seems like the information about ME is only a detail :P ===================== Bottomline: We develop for average users. I know we have some new 'brands' with Applications, Workspace and Platform but the avarage user REALLY DOESN'T CARE! We don't know what services and platforms Windows and Mac OS uses and that's for a reason...they understand that average users don't care that the underlying system is not one but multiple masterpieces so they don't bother us with it. Please Re-Open this bug (for most users even a blocker). If you do so, I am able and available to make up a new draft with some usability-experts (the kind that never used KDE before and don't think in technical aspects).
Application Appearance has not a single KWin item in it. Plasma, KWin and the Startup screen all share Workspace Appearance.
I stand corrected. However, I think you missed my point (or at least you did not react on it)
(In reply to comment #29) +1 It might be a translation problem, but as it is right now it is not less confusing than with KDE 4.4. I'm very happy that I can see what each item contains by looking at the tooltip. Otherwise I'd be totally lost each time. And still I'm often opening multiple items in a row until I find the setting I need. There are several items related to visuals: 1) Erscheinungsbild von Anwendungen / Appearance of applications 2) Arbeitsflächen-Effekte / Desktop effects 3) Erscheinungsbild der Arbeitsfläche / Appearance of the desktop 4) Arbeitsbereich / Desktop 5) Fenstereigenschaften / Window properties 6) Anzeige und Monitor / Display and monitor 7) Anmeldebildschirm / KDM (One question: Where is the difference between an Arbeitsfläche and an Arbeitsbereich?) There is "Energieverwaltung" / "Energy management", but the screensaver settings are in the "Display and monitor" item. (The problem here afaik goes far deeper than just the categorisation of settings, but that there are multiple components managing when my display is being locked/blanked/shutdown.) For keyboard related settings there is "Input devices" and "Shortcuts and gestures". Of which the latter carries the keyboard symbol, and the former a generic mouse/tablet icon. Even though the "Input devices" contains the actual keyboard settings. I fully support the point for "Personal information" / "Account details" confusion argument. "Personal information" in fact has nothing to do with personal information, but with "(Personal) Information management". Desktop search is in the "Appearance and behaviour of the desktop" category of settings, even though I rate it to be on the same level as "Personal Information", which again is in "Common appearance and behaviour". There is "File associations" and "Standard components", in different category, even though they appear very similar to me. ... I hope this list helps in finding the key points to improve for the next release.
I could not find screensaver because it's under Screen (one of the lower positions). If that's the right category, wallpapers should be there too.
every so many months someone wants to re-organize system settings. they do this because people are having a hard time finding things or the layout is too $SOMETHING (e.g. "deep" or "unorganized" or..) and those who ad learned it previously now suddenly don't find it "intuitive", because their learned behaviors no longer match the new reality of the layout. other new users will find something "wrong" with the new layout, just as others did with the old. here's the truth, after having been around kcontrol and system settings from a developer's, user's and deployment supporter's POV: there is no perfect layout. trying to find it is a fool's errand. all we can do is re-order it in a new way that is less worse in way A, but which will be worse in way B. the best our users can do is to use the search and learn by experience where things are. of course, if we keep moving things, then they can't build up that experience. this is the *number one complaint* i hear from users about system settings: things are constantly moving, and they have to re-find things. we got the same kind of feedback _every time we re-org'd kcontrol_ back in the 3.x days, too. so: STOP IT! stop re-ordering things. let people learn the organization and stick with it, even if it isn't perfectly optimal in some abstract manner. the value of people learning it is far, far, far more valuable. what's really galling is that the changes are almost always done without any actual research, instead based on opinion and personal experience. we have to stop screwing over our users like this. in fact, i'll go one step further here: if anyone changes the layout of items in system settings in any significant manner without some really, really good reasons (backed with field research on the matter) i promise you that i will revert the changes.
oh, and if you -really- want to make system settings more usable, work on new navigation aides, like being able to show related entries in the toolbar when in another area. or a search that brings up more accurate results. etc.
"what's really galling is that the changes are almost always done without any actual research, instead based on opinion and personal experience." So, ask for research then. We discussed it today with some folks at IRC and some of them think we can get valuable results. Linux and KDE own 1% of the market. I really don't bother hurting them if we can improve System Settings so the other 99% is not scared or confused when seeing it. So, maybe one day, I will do some research. Until then I hope the 1% can learn how to use it. ps. And not everyone is a coder. pps. I though we should polish KDE software....?
Aaron, im gona try to do some incremental fixing to the modules, mostly making them more pretty and consistent across them, trying to get rid off the side icons that usualy brake alignements inside the modules. Nothing major just alot of pollishment. This started out of doing some work for the app instaler module and I think I have a couple of ideas for the main module that without being a huge chage will make the content of the individual grouping modules more easy to undrstand. will need to mock it.
@BartOtten: "So, ask for research then" hard when it's a different person every time ;) but, yes, i do usually ask for research. "Linux and KDE own 1% of the market. I really don't bother hurting them if we can improve System Settings so the other 99% is not scared or confused when seeing it." assuming those numbers were correct (they aren't), this is a horrible way of looking at this particular situation. the way to inspire our users to recommend KDE to others is to make it a pleasant experience. we also owe it to them for their loyalty. yes, sometimes we have to break some eggs along the way, but in this case there is little if anything to be gained from shuffling items around in the hierarchy. trust me, i've watched it (and even been involved a few times) happen several times in the last ~decade. the problem isn't the location of the items in the hierarchy, it's hierarchical navigation of that many options having very real limits in what it can do. there was a talk about this exact example by someone as far back as the original Akademy in 2004! "Until then I hope the 1% can learn how to use it." if we stop screwing with it, yes, they will, to the degree that a general populace can learn such a hierarchy. we know this as a fact from past experience, both the possibility and the limits. "pps. I though we should polish KDE software....?" absolutely. but polishing is about making changes with real benefit. change has no intrinsic benefit value to it; it is the kind of change that gives benefit (or removes it). @pinheiro: that sounds very good, and the sort of things that can/will help a lot.
"we also owe it to them for their loyalty." If you are the best you do not depend on loyalty. I admit I was a little harsh on that point but I wanted to make the point loud and clear. Don't please 1% to much when it scares 99%. "polishing is about making changes with real benefit" That's the reason I would like to do an serious usability-test. If the testresults show that it is fine, then I will rest my case. I will do the same when change will have more disadvantages then it will have advantages. But...if the test is made right, the results are evaluated/interpetated right and it shows that System Settings is wrong: then I think we should for the last time break it and build a new one that's perfect (as far as the results show) In KDE3 time things could change many times because it were all workarounds. Like Compiz/Beryl. Now we have a good system (Kwin with compositing) and because of that it does not break anymore. I -think- System Settings is one of the MAJOR usability problem for NEW users. Even when you don't agree (I am a free man) I will -test- if it is a problem (and if so: how big is the problem) and then i will post data+results here. Maybe we are arguing about something that only exist in my head ;-)
"If you are the best you do not depend on loyalty." there is a tight relationship between loyalty and success, this is well understood from the study of market leading products and services. it's part of how one grows into a leading position, even. "Don't please 1% to much when it scares 99%." this i agree with. but that isn't what i'm suggesting here. what i'm suggest would be as true if we had 20% or 90% of the market. re-organizing the hierarchy is a losing proposition as it can -never be organized with perfect efficiency-. it's a limit of hierarchy and humans, not something that can be worked around with better organization. so it's not just pleasing whatever users we have now, it's that any arrangement will have it's flaws but an re-arrangement costs people's time spent learning the existing layout. the layout we have now is not so egregious as to make up for that cost. "shows that System Settings is wrong" it isn't about it being "right", it's about hierarchical representations of a large number of options being impossible to get "right" in even most cases for most people. "then I think we should for the last time break it and build a new one that's perfect" this is exactly what the last two groups who came along said. "I -think- System Settings is one of the MAJOR usability problem for NEW users." it isn't something that ever comes up when discussing pain points users, new or old, come across. changing the locations of items in system settings does come up though with existing users. for some people it is an issue, but with a large user base it's possible to find _someone_ who will have an issue with just about anything. i do appreciate your open mindedness and willingness to take this to real field testing. i do hope that regardless of what happens here, you take this spirit on to other areas of KDE that are truly in need of this kind of scrutiny.
Aaron, I understand your point and I understand the way you think. As leader of an enormous group you see people come and go with the ideas they have or had. But not -everybody- is scared for something that is bigger then 'talk and shortfix'. I do not plan to change anything without others to approve. Therefor I searched for more people to work with. You are right that there is no 'perfect' because of the many options available. But I am devoted to come up with the 'best of the worse' and facts to prove it ;-)
ps. Please let's close this discussion until there is something worked out, statistics are collected etc etc. I guess many on this list have better things to do then hold me back. Don't forget: I can't push the changes into KDE Applications so there is no risk :P