Version: (using KDE KDE 3.5.7) Installed from: SuSE RPMs From the usability point of view the reasons are the same as in this report: https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=148869 The best example considering intuitive UI testing is tabbed Konqueror vs. Firefox. In Konqueror you click on the tab, you move your wheel and you have to look carefully where you ended up. In FF you do the same and in effect you smoothly scroll trough the selected tab content. Very convincing from the natural user feel&intuition. I tested it on three people (including myself) so it is not strict science :-) but I think it tells anyway that the first guess would be "wheel scrolls the page, not the tabs". So user actually has to memorize the UI and forget her/his intuition. I think FF aproach is better here. Please either change the behaviour or provide an option to control wheel-scrolling when tab was clicked.
No, no - if you scroll over tabs, the tabs should scroll. That's why you have your mouse over the tabs in the first place, right? I use the mousewheel to scroll through tabs all the time, and HATE HATE HATE the fact IE7 and firefox on win can't do it. The point is - you tested it with windows users, right? They are used to a non-working scrollwheel. Windows is unable to determine what part of the screen the mousewheel is used on, so it ALWAYS ONLY scrolls the main window. And often not even that. You can't scroll over the taskbar, over tabs, horizontal scrollbars, the volume icon in the systray, inactive windows or even inactive PARTS of the active window or anywhere else. In fact, if you have IE running, wherever on the screen you scroll - it scrolls the main window. It's utterly stupid, but because you used to it, you want linux to be that stupid as well? In linux/KDE, a scroll wheel actually works: scroll the wheel over something, and it will scroll. Volume, scrollbars (horizontal, vertical, active, AND inactive), tasks, tabs, anywhere. It makes sense, it's usable and usefull, it's just not what windows users are used to, because windows is retarded and a scrollwheel doesn't work in windows...
> That's why you have your mouse over the tabs in the first place, right? Absolutely no -- I am over tab, because I have to click on the tab. Then I would like to scroll immediately. Besides: a) I have no more than 7 tabs usually, scrolling by wheel is not use in such case b) I didn't have in my life any need such that being on tab A, I click on tab D, and then I wheel-scroll to tab not D > I use the mousewheel to scroll through tabs all the time, and HATE HATE HATE > the fact IE7 and firefox on win can't do it. :-D The same feelings of being unable to scroll the page. > The point is - you tested it with windows users, right? Nope, pure linux breed :-) Btw. when I talked about FF it is FF running in KDE. So I can have only mouse cursor over tabs _only_ and use scroll-wheel to read all pages. No need to move anywhere else. In Konqueror you have to move over the tabs and than over the page and click _in_ pages -- much more movement, much more clicking. FF is much faster here. Before you say "oh, they are all FF users" :-) my answer is "nope, pure Konqueror users". I use FF from time to time just when Konq. has problems, and accidently I spotted that behaviour. > They are used to a non-working scrollwheel. Nope, as I mentioned above -- they (and I) switched the tab for a reason. Reading this tab page contents, which involves scrolling. Of the page, not tabs. > Windows is unable to determine what part of the screen the mousewheel is > used on, so it ALWAYS ONLY scrolls the main window. Let's skip the technical details and put windows off the discussion since it is irrelevant here. Conclusions. Smart behaviour could be implemented -- it is rather about focus changing, not wheel-scrolling: for example, if the user clicks on the tab, the tab will not get focus, but page itself. I could solve the problem, but I don't like it. It is a bit hard to implement, overcomplex, it could lead to another kind of problem. I would rather opt for fixed option in KDE. Reason is this: I doubt that any user with priority of page scrolling has also need to wheel-scroll the tabs and vice versa, so one consistent behaviour for one user and one (the other) consistent behaviour for the other user would be enough.
Hmmm. It would be annoying for myself, because I use it a lot - slam your mouse somewhere over the tabbar and scroll. no aiming for a specific tab, just scroll. Besides, it would be inconsistent - the widget your mouse is above scrolls, not just what happens to be any main window. BTW why is it more work, you don't have to click in the page in Konqi - click the tab -> scroll over the page and it scrolls, or click the tab - cursor-down scrolls the page. No problem there... And aiming for a specific tab, clicking, and moving your mouse just a little down is not much more work than aiming for a specific tab and NOT moving the mouse down a little. But not being able to use the scrollwheel on the tabbar ANYWHERE for scrolling tabs but always having to aim for a specific tab IS more work... It's like never using alt-tab, but always the taskbar. Possible, but tedious and annoying. And I can't tell ppl one of the advantages of Linux over Windows (yeah, it's relevant in that area): the scrollwheel actually works intuitively: move your mouse over something, scroll - and it scrolls. It would be weird if you keep your mouse over some area, and another area scrolls, imho. I don't really get the last sentence. 'I doubt that any user with priority of page scrolling has also need to wheel-scroll the tabs' -> I use my mousewheel to scroll anything, be it the page (duh), the tabs, tasks on my taskbar, volume on my systray, etcetera. After all, it's what a scrollwheel is for, right?
> Besides, it would be inconsistent - the widget your mouse is above scrolls, > not just what happens to be any main window. Technically (Qt) -- yes, but people does not think that way (me too), for me tab+page is one thing. And it even looks this way (at least with my settings), so when I click on tab I assume I am in the page. > And aiming for a specific tab, clicking, and moving your mouse just a little > down is not much more work than aiming for a specific tab and NOT moving the > mouse down a little. You forgot another click. But this little work you do not do once in your life. It is done over and over and over and over again and when I "discovered" FF it worked so smooth, relief of constant moving the mouse and clicking. > But not being able to use the scrollwheel on the tabbar ANYWHERE for > scrolling tabs but always having to aim for a specific tab IS more work... OK! So I wished for option -- your workflow won't change a bit. > After all, it's what a scrollwheel is for, right? So you are hardware centric -- I have a wheel, what can I do with it? I am purpose centric -- I want to read a web page, how can I do it nicely?
What click did I forget? scrolling always works in KDE, you never have to click first. Mouse-down scrolls as well after switching tabs, even with the mousewheel. You never have to click at all ;-) And I'm not hardware centric, I just expect my desktop to work. If I use my scrollwheel, it shouldn't do weird things, like scroll area's on the screen I'm not hovering with my mouse. I think its unintuitive, but I guess we just don't agree on that. Aside, it's more efficient, at least for me. My finger is always on my scrollwheel when I'm in the webbrowser, not on a button, because well - you're often scrolling when you're reading pages. So I don't have to move my finger when I want to switch to another tab. How's that for you?
Jos, I think we said all that was to be said (and little more) :-) I am not saying that you should change the way you work. But please do not insist that I should change my habits. Take a book with the tabs for example -- somebody has need to traverse the tabs, somebody to "traverse" pages attached to the tab (single tab). KDE (Konqueror) renders tabs in exact analogy to such book, so I think that my need (or habit) is not unjustified. And intuitions brought from "real world" should be respected. If this wish will be implemented, you won't turn this option on, ok? :-)
True ;-) Hmmm, and I've been filing bugreports to allow tabs to be scrollable, you know... LOL Yeah, your analogy makes sense. Yet I don't see how one could expect scrolling over the TAB to scroll the page, they're visually quite distinct. I mean, every part of the app belongs to the main page, so scrolling anywhere would scroll the page? It IS how windows does it, but personally, I hate it... Guess it's more subjective than I thought (while filing those bugs).
> Hmmm, and I've been filing bugreports to allow tabs to be scrollable, you > know... LOL :-D > they're visually quite distinct. With my settings, they are the same. I have almost complete rectangle frame, but with empty line where the tab is. There the line goes around the tab -- so the page with tab is one piece. With two tabs, the other tab is visually distinct from the first -- just like with the book. > Guess it's more subjective than I thought (while filing those bugs). Indeed. Really, for me, the way Firefox handles it, it is more comfortable, I go with my intuition and it just works. Since I prefer Konqueror, I would like to see the same smooth work here.
Well ... I am using notebook with relatively small (synaptic) touch pad and no wheel emulation buttons so I have to use border scrolling for it. Because touchpad is small, sometimes I accidentally hit border when I want to move mouse. In this case the effect is - I move mouse to click on tab to switch - I (want to) move mouse to the page contents - I accidentally touch border area and jump out of just selected tab This is not limited to konqueror and tabs - the same problem is everywhere where wheel event is silently! interpreted as switch between instances (task manager as example) I do not ask anyone to change how they work. But I myself never used "wheel switching" in my life. Nor is world limited to wheel mice - there are other sorts of hardware that are not as easy to use. Please make it configurable. I do not ask for passing wheel event down widget stack - just check button to turn this behaviour on and off; and not only in konqueror but everywhere such switch is implemented.
It seems very natural to start scrolling the wheel to scroll the page as soon as one clicks the tab he needs. Here is a usage scenario: Meirav is on her Facebook page, but she would like to see what is on the Slashdot tab. She clicks on the Slashdot tab and starts reading, leaving her hand on the mouse. She gets to the end of the page and starts scrolling the mouse wheel. Expected behaviour: The page would scroll What really happened: The browser switched tabs This bug bites me ten times a day. Please add an option for scrolling the page (or just doing nothing) when scrolling on a tab. Thanks.
I would like to see a check box control for this. Not only 1) konqueror but 2) dolphin, 3) konsole, 4) the task manager switcher, and 5) the virtual desktop pager. A check box control allows everybody to configure what they want. KDE does a really good job providing users the option of what they want, but not in this case. :) The only place I found a control option is for disabling cycling virtual desktops when the mouse pointer is over the desktop. For some users I see the usefulness of cycling yet I'm one of those where cycling tends to confuse me. I'm prone to inadvertently bumping the scroll wheel. Then again, I have been warned not to walk and chew gum at the same time. When the mouse pointer is over a tab bar, the task bar, or the virtual desktop pager widget, and I bump the scroll wheel, I'm abruptly interrupted by the scroll event, which disrupts my work flow and concentration.
Closing old wishlists. This sounds like a Qt wishlist anyway