Version: 0.9 (using KDE KDE 3.5.6) Installed from: Ubuntu Packages OS: Linux it would be nice to have tabs in dolphin too cause splitting views is useful when you need to copy/past but when you just need to have several repositories open, tabs are just better IMO.that's certainly a killer feature of Konqueror at the moment, middle click on a folder and you get a nice new tab.
I agree with this completely. If you guys are going the dolphin way, please make it very functional. Tabs are a must have.
I also agree. On split view, user should be able to drag tabs to the view where he wants them.
I agree as well. If Dolphin gets tabs, I won't need konqueror at all any more, as I use firefoxfor web browsing.
I agree, too. Tabs would be a nice feature in Dolphin.
Yes, tabs should be very interesting in dolphin!
From what I've heard, they're NOT going to include tabs. Apparently developers think it's a stupid idea, because they want to keep Dolphin simple, and not become a lighter konqueror. I understand, kind of..however... Honestly, tabs ARE simple, and a must have for a file browser. Too many little windows is both annoying and un-organized. Sure, you can use Konqueror if you want tabs, but dolphin IS going to be the default file-browser...and new users may not know about konqueror. Chances are, most people are going to be looking for tabs because it's just one of those obvious things. It simply SHOULD have tabs. The developers need to stop completely relying on technical concepts and principles, and actually listen to the vast majority. I'm not saying add every feature under the sun and ruin the purpose of dolphin. Not at all. But I think it's pretty apparent that most people want tabs; and IMO tabs are not a power-user function, but a standard feature that should be added. not with the purpose of making things more complex or bloated, but to add simplicity -- which I thought, was the point of dolphin.
> Apparently developers think it's a stupid idea, because > they want to keep Dolphin simple That's not true, I don't know where you got this information from. If you're interested in more background info, please have a look at http://lists.kde.org/?l=kfm-devel&w=2&r=1&s=dolphin+tabs&q=b > Honestly, tabs ARE simple, and a must have for a file browser. I respect that it's your opinion that it is a "must have" for a file browser. Stating that tabs "ARE simple" is just wrong from a UI perspective and also from a development perspective. Please take a look at Konqi from KDE 3 and start counting all tabs-related menu options + all possible settings. We don't talk about just having a "Create Tab" menu entry, we talk about a lot of more things... > The developers need to stop completely relying on technical > concepts and principles, and actually listen to the vast majority. My Dolphin-e-mail-box counts 3600 mails currently and we regulary check comments at the dot -> we listen to user input as much as possible. Current state: I've more people stating that they don't want tabs in comparison to people stating that they want tabs... Assuming that a big part of the Dolphin target user group are not typical dot-readers and not that kind of people that write directly e-mails to developers, for me the direction to go is quite clear. > But I think it's pretty apparent that most people want tabs; Yes, it's appearent that there are people that want tabs. It's not appearent that those people are in the group of "most people"... However: I see this tabs vs. no tabs discussion quite pragmatic. If we get the impression that the majority of people really want tabs for Dolphin, then there will be a point where we can start the discussion again. At the moment let's wait for some further feedback when KDE 4.0 is released.
Fair enough. Although I did write a bit about why I think tabs should be added. Below is the article I wrote, which could be viewed here: http://www.tuxmachines.org/node/22995 ---- According to the Dolphin webpage, Dolphin is: "a file manager for KDE focusing on usability." To expand; from my experiences with it, along with words from developers, Dolphin is a light-weight file-manager, meant to be strictly used for file-browsing. It is not meant to be a replacement for Konqueror. Konqueror, however, in KDE 4 will be the "power user" tool..made for more experienced linux/kde users. It will not be the default file-browser; Dolphin will. While it all sounds very interesting, and from my experience, Dolphin seems to be progressing steadily, I still have a few concerns. However, my main issue, is the fact that the majority of the developers are against adding tabs. The proposal for adding tabs, was posted in this thread http://lists.kde.org/?l=kfm-devel&m=118373314623787&w=2 , however it was quickly shot down by many of the developers. For instance, one said: "Ouch, honestly it doesn’t look like a good idea to me. It’ll be yet another setting for a feature you can already have elsewhere. " Now I ask..is that really the case? Is it really yet another feature you can get elsewhere? Well, yes..Konqueror does indeed have tabs... ..but, should that disqualify tabs from being added? Does the fact that Konqueror has tabs make it so adding them to a filebrowser would be pointless? Would adding tabs to Dolphin make it less or more functional as a filebrowser? You tell me. Let's look at it another way. Konqueror, as a "power user tool," has many different view options. You can have a tree view..a column view, etc. But..what do you know? So can Dolphin! Why? Because it makes things more convenient for different people. Do you really NEED a multi-column view in Dolphin when Konqueror can already do that? Technically, no..you don't NEED columns in Dolphin to be a standard file browser. You COULD just open new windows. But, like I said, it was added anyway..and for a good reason. Yet, if this useful feature is added, then why aren't tabs? Essentially, tabs don't HAVE to be added. Nor' does one HAVE to have a MultiColumn view. However, there are some things..despite the fact that you can get them with other programs, that can be added to make things easier for the end user. In my view, tabs can (and do) generally enhance the FILE-BROWSING experience. And besides, isn't that the point of Dolphin; to be a functional and simple FILE-BROWSER? I for one, prefer tabs over multiple windows, and I know many do as well. Multiple windows for me, are annoying, cluttered, and over-all disorganized. Plus, opening a simple tab is much cleaner and more functional than opening a new window; a new window that can soon be lost behind the many other apps you have open (if you're a multi-tasker like myself!). Overall, I think tabs should be added to Dolphin. While granted, it isn't a HAVE TO feature(neither is multi-column view), it is a feature that can help keep things for FILE-BROWSING neat, organized, and easier for the end-user. Plus, most applications now days have tabs, and most people just automatically look for them. Tabs ARE NOT a power-user feature, infact they've become just one of those "common sense" things; one of those things that have been proven to be very useful. Personally, I'm not sure why the developers are so hell-bent on keeping tabs away from Dolphin; but I will say this: listen to the every-day kde user. Don't rely completely on philosophies or technical concepts. Don't cloud your mind with what's best for YOU. Instead, listen to the users; put yourself in their shoes. From the responses I've seen on several forums and blogs, I think it’s pretty apparent that most people want tabs. In my eyes, tabs are a standard feature that should be added; not with the purpose of making things more complex or bloated, but to add simplicity — which I thought, was the point of dolphin. And finally, I'm not saying add every feature under the sun..and add a google bar, and turn Dolphin into Konqueror the second. No. I'm saying use common sense, and make Dolphin (especially since it will be the default file-browser) functional, smart, and easy to use. ----- That is from what I wrote. Anyway, something to think about. As you said..we can always wait and see where the feedback points to.
Your example of column view is good but there is better. Dolphin comes with an integrated konsole now thats the most useless and geaky feature for a simple file browser aimed at the average Joe. Tabs are more likely to be used IMO. On 31 Dec 2007 00:52:56 -0000, Joe <joe.crollard@gmail.com> wrote: [bugs.kde.org quoted mail]
> Your example of column view is good but there is better. > Dolphin comes with an integrated konsole now thats the most > useless and geaky feature for a simple file browser aimed > at the average Joe. Tabs are more likely to be used IMO. The example with the konsole comes up often in combination with the tabs discussion. But it completely misses the point why we (currently) don't add tabs in Dolphin... Please let me explain: Dolphin has _not_ been made for "average Joe" (however such a person is defined). Concentrating on usability does not mean just skipping features and hence also a "simple file manager" can provide features for a broad range of users. The konsole has been added to Dolphin because it is (at least I call it this way) an "orthogonal feature". It adds a great value for users who use this feature (maybe you'd call such users "geaks"), but it does not add any clutter to the user interface and so does not decrease the usability for people who don't need the konsole. The konsole feature adds one single sub menu entry under Views -> Places and that's it. Now back to the tab feature. As pointed out above I'd really kindly ask all people here on this thread to open Konqueror from KDE 3 and go through all menus and count all tab related menu entries. Now go into the settings menu of Konqueror and count all tab related settings options. Now compare this number with the konsole feature and please don't tell me that it adds no additional complexity for people who don't use this feature. I'm aware that the number of additional menu entries + settings is not the only criteria for adding tabs or not, but at least it makes clear that this is no orthogonal feature. Dolphin is no competitor to Konqueror. Both applications are targeted for different user groups. At the current state we (= the developers of Dolphin and Konqueror) think that the tabs feature fits better into the Konqueror target user group than into Dolphins target user group. And yes: both groups intersect with each other so I understand that there are people who like Dolphin and want to have tabs. But the awful truth is that no matter where we'll draw the line, there will always be users who miss a feature or think that this feature is useless and adds clutter. Hell, I'll tell you a secret: I sometimes even used the tab feature in Konqeror for the file management myself before Dolphin was there. But this does not mean that I'll add this feature to Dolphin just because _I_ want it... Before this bug-report degenerates to a long discussion thread: What I would be very interested are the usecases where you need tabs for file management. E. g. in my experience I used it only because I've lost the overview when having too many windows open. But if this would be the only reason for adding tabs then this would mean we would have to add tabs in _all_ KDE applications out there (and the real solution might be in fixing the window manager). So could you give me some other use cases? What I would also be interested whether you use drag & drop between tabs and why you use tabs in this case instead e. g. a split view? So thanks in advance for further input!
hey peter, thanks for the reply. After trying out dolphin in kde4 I have to say that it is really great and the lack of tabs is barely a problem. However, for people with tiny screens, splitting the window makes it hard to use and read, I sometime need to scroll horizontally which is bad for usabillity so I just fire konqueror. Also when I have several FTP or fish sessions opened tabs are useful. Finally, just because konqueror offers a whole bunch of tabs settings doesn't mean dolphin should, I would be happy with just ctrlT and ctrlW. finally if we send you a patch for tabs would you accept it? Thanks again and happy new year! On 31 Dec 2007 15:47:32 -0000, Peter Penz <peter.penz@gmx.at> wrote: [bugs.kde.org quoted mail]
Hi Patcito, thanks for giving me some usecases! > finally if we send you a patch for tabs would you accept it? Adding tabs to Dolphin is not just a simple patch... It would require several 100 lines of code doing this really right (e. g. when adding tabs to Dolphin drag & drop between tabs must be supported, configuration settings must be implemented etc.). Also someone must maintain this code later and test sideeffects in combination with other features... > Thanks again and happy new year! Thanks, I also wish you a happy new year! It's time turning off the computer now (31th Dec. 2007, 19:15) and to drink some beer... ;-)
I agree that tabs are a must-have-feature. Think of the kio-protocols, are they of use without tabs? I often have many tabs with local-filesystem (mp3-folder, image-folder, working-folder), a webdav-tab, a fish-tab,.. Is is very bad for usability to have many open-dolphin windows instead of tabs. Tabs in konqueror are the reason for most of people I know staying with linux-kde instead of ms-windows. I also don't see, that there has to be much configuration for tabs, so I also don't understand the argument, that konqueror has so much tab-configuration-options: many of them may be waste.
I think that every day activities require tabs! I do not like Dolphin and the fact that KDE 3 Konqueror file management superior abilities are crippled in order to have a simple(=not useful) file manager is not acceptable by me. KDE team did just that. Promoted Dolphin, which is a **slightly** better Nautilus!), crippled Konqueror, for what? A simpler(?) interface? If I need to open 5 or 6 windows in order to have all the data I need, then usability is dropped to 0!. Today, I have 7 tabs open in one Konqueror window, which keeps my desktop as neat as possible. With Dolphin, I search through the open windows to find what I need. But, wait! I can do that in Windows too! Mind you I stopped using Windows because of KDE's superior usability! In general, If you do not think that tabs should be added, fine. Don't do it. I will transfer all my requests to Konquerors. If community wants Konqueror (or Konqueror's usabilities) back, then I think that you (and KDE team) have to listen them. By the way, my intention is to show to all the KDE people that we really want a better desktop. Not 'simple' applications. If we wanted simplicity, we would have chose Gnome.
> I think that every day activities require tabs! Thats why we still offer Konqueror, nothing has been taken away from you. If you don't like Dolphin: don't use it. It's that simple. > By the way, my intention is to show to all the KDE people that > we really want a better desktop. Using a bug-report for showing it "all the KDE people" is the wrong medium. At the moment the only person who follows this thread is myself and all contributors to this thread... > Not 'simple' applications. > If we wanted simplicity, we would have chose Gnome. "We" == "you"? Who is "we"? Do you define or represent the target user group of KDE? I'd like to suggest you read the following: http://enzosworld.gmxhome.de/philosophy.html and also the content of the previous replies in this bug-report. Thanks!
answering the call for use cases in comment #10 ... I enjoy taking pictures, lots of them. I classify them in separate directories, then use tabs in konqueror to open them all at once. This way I can easily access all of them, without having one huge directory. Splitting the view couldn't work, because it reduces the available visual area and I can't split it as many times as I have folders. I do the same with my music, movies, etc... I really want to switch to dolphin, which i find more elegant, and focused on file managing, but no tabs means I can't really use it. I *could*, just like I could have 70 internet explorer windows opened at once many years back; but then use Firefox and its tabs once and there is no going back. People are used to use tabs in Firefox, using them in the file manager is a logical extension of the convenience it allows for. To me it is quite surprising that tabs are purposefully kept from Dolphin; it feels like going back in terms of usability to the clumsiness of windows explorer or nautilus, and their multiple simultaneous open windows, cluttering the taskbar, and making it difficult to find just the right folder you want. this may seem naive, but i also fail to understand how exactly splitting the view is simpler than tabs, in terms of developpement. all that would be required is to put the newly created view in a tab, instead of in the right side of the window. complex tab management is not needed. just a simple way to get an uncluttered view of several directories at once. all in all, I'll stick to using konqueror for the moment, just because of the lack to tab support in dolphin. Tabs ARE a killer feature in konqueror, and it is strange and somewhat dissapointing that Dolphin does not build upon this clear advantage over other file browsers. apart from that, i find Dolphin unexpectedly pleasant, so great job! this makes it all the more frustrating that i can't use it on a daily basis.
Thanks Matthieu for your constructive input, comments like this are a good base for a discussion. I'll collect informations like this and will open an internal discussion with the Dolphin + Konqueror developers to come to a conclusion. Please don't expect anything before KDE 4.2. Currently we are very busy focusing outstanding bugs in Dolphin for KDE 4.1 and fixing some regressions in Konqueror compared to KDE 3.x.
*** Bug 157540 has been marked as a duplicate of this bug. ***
@Peter Penz: >Adding tabs to Dolphin is not just a simple patch... It would require several 100 lines of code doing this really right... Then, why on earth the development team decided to make dolphin the default File Manager? Why? How may developers work on this project? Anyway, to me it seems very clear that the KDE team made a mistake with Dolphin. That's way I will keep using Konq for my daily activities. By the way, this is a Wish list. Let's vote for that.
> Then, why on earth the development team decided to make dolphin > the default File Manager? Why? How may developers > work on this project? If you expect us developers spending some days implementing a feature you want, then at least it should not be impolite to demand from you to spend 15 minutes of your time to read our answers on this thread first. Hint: your questions get answered by following some links... > That's way I will keep using Konq for my daily activities. ... and that's OK. That's why Dolphin did not replace Konqueror, Dolphin is just an additional application target for specific kind of users. Obviously you are not part of the target user group of Dolphin and using Konqueror in this case is the way to go.
I'd also like tabs in Dolphin really much. These tabs were, in fact, the main advantage of konqueror, and my main reason to use it. I think it is not really good to say dolphin is the "simple" app and does not need this feature. Of course, you could use konqueror instead - but konqueror does not have other features dolphin has, like the terminal. So there are many nice features in both browsers, but they are split between dolphin and konqueror, so you can't profit from both at once :/ At all, I'd really like this feature to be implemented. Best regards, Sven :)
Actually, I love Dolphin after being skeptical in the first place. But the only thing that really annoys me is not having tabs. Having to open several windows to open different folders just doesn't seem right and could be handled so much better. It's also no power-user feature anymore now that even the internet explorer features them. The average user won't ever see tabs if he doesn't want to use them.
Konqueror in KDE4 has no meta bar; it's been crippled as a file manager. Dolphin has the "preview" panel, which, while too basic IMO, is usable. But how can you claim that tabs are not basic? Browsers have tabs, konsole has tabs, ktorrent has tabs, kate, kopete... the list goes on. The reason is simple: people multi-task. Disallowing tabs in Dolphin is a giant step backward to Windows 95. People are used to tabs (IE7) and people should be able to have tabs. It is /not/ that hard, don't give us this crap about "too many options." If people ask for a feature that is possible, it should be available, even if it requires a special package. Please either fix konqueror in KDE4 or fix dolphin, I don't care which, but right now, there is /no/ good file manager for KDE.
@Jorden > don't give us this crap about "too many options." Sorry, but I don't listen to people that are: - too lazy to read the whole discussion thread and come up with things that have been discussed already - don't provide constructive feedback If you think that Konqueror is "crippled" and I talk "crap" then please submit a bug-report to Konqueror and stay out of this thread. It is not my fault or the fault of Dolphin that there have been very few coders who did porting work for Konqueror4. > If people ask for a feature that is possible, it should > be available, even if it requires a special package. I'm quite sick of this kind of attitude: I'm not your employee, if you don't like Dolphin simply don't use it. Constructive feedback is OK, but you have not mentioned one single point which has not been mentioned before. Do you really think I'm motivated to implement a feature in my spare time for people who think I'm talking crap? Final words: if you'd have read the whole thread, then you'd know that I'm not against tabs and maybe we'll implement them for 4.2. I like tabs in browsers, I like tabs in Konsole. I asked in this thread to provide use cases for tabs and got a few good cases (that's "constructive feedback")... You expect people to spend several days to implement a feature, but don't have time to spend 15 minutes to come up with real world use cases. IMHO this is quite disappointing...
Throughout Dolpin's development, the main reason for no tabs has been different spins on "they're too complicated." Maybe if you had more than one reason for not doing it then people would give you more reasons for doing it. Do you expect users not to be upset when all the devs did until fairly recently was flat-out reject a good idea? The only reason I mentioned Konqueror's problems is because people who want tabs in Dolphin are told to use Konqueror, when Konqueror in KDE4 is not a viable alternative. If Konqueror has almost no one working on it, how are we supposed to get it fixed? If the functionality can't be gotten somewhere, what are people supposed to do, stop using KDE or try to kludge in something from kde-apps that will never work right? I like KDE, but the tone lately has been "we want simplicity." That's fine, but don't be like Gnome and make it impossible to not to go beyond that simplicity. Isn't the point of working on KDE to help give people a great desktop experience? Why shun people who ask for something because it doesn't fit your agenda. Instead of saying "No, that's too complicated," for months, why couldn't you have said from the beginning, "yes, not now, but in a later release?" I'm sorry that I've come off as angry here, but the tone of the developers has been pretty condescending so far. If the project is short on people, then it should have taken longer to do a release. Users would have waited if it paid off in the end. You're not expected to implement a feature in a few days, but you should wait until something's ready to release it. I'm glad you're open to adding tabs, but if people want other features (like preview on hover for music, preview videos in the side panel, etc.), is it going to be this hard to get them every time? As a closing thought, I'm sorry I ranted on you, but I'm afraid KDE will go down a bad path if the developers are less open to adding things if they will only benefit a minority. I'm sure there's a way to add functionality without increasing complexity (like stuffing it in an "advanced" menu). I guess my overall wish is that if Konqueror file management is no longer a priority, can we please have a bit of a shift in Dolphin's goals to allow it to be even better than 3.x Konqui at file management? I think everyone could live with that, even if it's set as a goal for 4.5 or beyond.
@Jordan Mauro: Come on. I'm not a developer but it's really a no-brainer that no one will ever be motivated to fulfill your wish if you tell him he's giving you crap. I think you're right with what you're saying that almost every app in KDE features tabs and it would be great to have them included in Dolphin but if you piss off developers it will eventually take even longer. Matter of fact, we're still talking about a x.0 release here and it's clear that there are missing features in some programs. Regarding the requested examples for use cases: I have my files split in several directories like in /data /mp3s /musicvideos and of course /home/user When I look for stuff, I of course have to browse through these directories. Having split view doesn't really make sense because I only want to see the content of one folder at a time and not be distracted by another folder. Jumping back and forth between directories is also not an option since they're quite well organized and I have several subdirectories. So the only option remaining is having several dolphin windows open which is extremely inconvenient, once you've become used to the comfort that tabs provide. No one who ever used them in firefox will be voluntarily going back to open different windows. So please add tabs to dolphin asap. It will make a very good program even greater. You can also keep them deactivated as default and just offer one extra menu in the settings section. No average Joe will ever notice anything different.
@Jordan: > Why shun people who ask for something because it doesn't fit your agenda. Do you imply with this that I just follow my "agenda" and don't care for users? Currently I've 4710 Dolphin related e-mails and I think Dolphin is like it is as I actually tried to listen to the target user base Dolphin has been made for (http://enzosworld.gmxhome.de/philosophy.html). > Maybe if you had more than one reason for not doing it then people > would give you more reasons for doing it. This is a flawed kind of argumentation... If people want to have a feature, they just have to convince me that my point of view is not valid and that they have better arguments. And the best way of arguments in the tab case is giving real world use cases. > Instead of saying "No, that's too complicated," for months, why couldn't > you have said from the beginning, "yes, not now, but in a later release?" Because I'm listening to users and am open for changing my opinion. There has been quite constructive feedback in this thread and I thought already a lot about how to implement tabs without adding 7 tab menu entries like Konqueror3 did... The thing is: It requires constructive feedback from the users. The only reasons you gave for tabs was "people multitask" and that there are applications that offer tabs. If I'd argument the same way I could say "but the most used file browser in the world - Windows Explorer - does not have tabs, nor has Mac OS X' Finder or Gnome's Nautilus.". But this is a flawed argumentation... > I'm sorry that I've come off as angry here, but the tone > of the developers has been pretty condescending so far. This is because the tone of the community has changed during the last years (see also http://daniel.molkentin.de/blog/archives/108-Comments-Considered-Harmful-or-The-Halo-Effect.html) and you are a very good example why developers get condescending: If you use terms like "crippled" and "crap" don't expect that we stay polite. Some years ago people from the community often asked whether they could help, in the meantime the majority only requests things and expects developers to implement "their feature". > If the project is short on people, then it should have taken longer > to do a release. This thing has been discussed so often already and you're really wrong here... Open Source development requires frequent releases to get any feedback from users. If we would have released KDE 4.0 somewhere in 2010 (when it's "finished" (?)), then you would not have been noticed that Dolphin has no tabs. You only know that Dolphin has no tabs because we released KDE 4.0. So here we are: open for discussion, listening to users and maybe implementing this feature quite soon... ;-) @w.posche: Thanks for the use case. Judging from the current use cases it seems that tabs are mainly used for navigation purposes (-> drag and drop between tabs seems to be used very rarely). I think I could come up with a useful tab interface without cluttering the menu with 7 items with this input.
On Fri, Apr 11, 2008 at 6:03 PM, Peter Penz <peter.penz@gmx.at> wrote: > w posche: > Thanks for the use case. Judging from the current use cases it seems that tabs are mainly used for navigation purposes (-> drag and drop between tabs seems to be used very rarely). I think I could come up with a useful tab interface without cluttering the menu with 7 items with this input. > I don't think konqueror3 tabs config is so terrible (at least for the user), it only has two checkbox and an "advanced option" button that leads to 7 checkbox. In comparison Firefox has 6 items to check and no advanced button, and firefox is always acclaimed for its great usability (not that this means anything but still). When you say that 7 items is too much do you mean for the developer to implement or for the user? (or both :). Anyway thanks for dolphin and hope that helps.
The problem is that wanting a "simple" Dolphin coupled with removing features and developers from Konqueror narrows KDE's target userbase. This is bad. With Konqueror, people could at least ignore features if they were put off by complexity, but now there's no way to do something. It's either no tabs or it's tabs and a browser with reduced functionality compared to the previous version. This is obviously going to piss users off. And if people don't have time to get acquainted with the new Qt and KDE libs /and/ patch someone else's code then they're just going to keep asking until they either get it, a new app comes out, or they switch DEs. I understand the OSS philosophy of "release early and often," but (and I'm not the only person that's said this, please don't take it personally) KDE's handling of the 4.0 cycle was taking it too far. The environment was not feature complete, it was buggy, it crashed for a lot of people, etc. You can still release early and often, but a .0 release is for when it's pretty much done. I think a longer beta/RC phase would have helped KDE a lot. Just because the project waited does /not/ mean I wouldn't have noticed. I tracked KDE 4 development and installed the betas and RCs to test them. I noticed Dolphin didn't have tabs months ago, I noticed the discussions on the internet, and hoped that it would be resolved. It hasn't. It's just getting there now. But what about when the next feature that a minority wants comes along? I'm inclined to suggest that Dolphin become a bit of a plugins platform so people can get what they want. It works for Firefox. But I'm sure that would get shot down. And as for you getting pissed because I said crippled, well, what else do you call it when features are /removed/ from an application? (And again, I was not trying to bring Konqueror's problems into this thread, I was trying to show that it's not an alternative as a file mananger anymore) and crap, well, come on... the reason for no tabs was essentially "it's too complex." You are the people who develop a huge desktop environment on a portable framework that offers features a lot of other desktops don't. And if you have a lot of people who don't want tabs, if the configuration menu is organized well, all they have to do is skip right over the tabs section and not worry since they are off by default. How can this be a stumbling block? I really didn't want to start a flamewar here (yeah, I know I was baiting), but I can't help be angry that something I was used to having/using was taken away, and so are other people. I want to use KDE4, but it's not appealing in a lot of little ways like this. In any event, this back and forth isn't helping, I'm sorry, can we stop? /rant Use cases: 1) I traverse a long directory path and want to copy/move a file to an equally complex path, but I also want to keep working in the first path (or both). I open up a new tab for the other path, traverse down, drag the item from path A to the tab for path B and drop. Done. This would otherwise have to be done with 2 panes or windows, but two panes reduce my screen real estate for each directory (let's say path A and B have a lot of items) and I can't ignore path B when I'm looking at path A (which is distracting). 2 windows clutter up my desktop because I've already got browser, IM, music, package manager, shells, word processor, etc. open 2) I have a directory I'm working in, and suddenly I need to do something quick in a heavily-nested directory (maybe I need to tar up some files to give to someone or something like that) I only want to work in the other directory for a minute or so, so I hit ^T and type the directory, do my work and I'm done, then I close the tab. Without tabs, I could just leave the current directory, but then I have to traverse back to it, or I could open another window, but this is slower and again clutters my desktop As for the menus, just the way dolphin is now, you could add an entry in the preferences popup along with "general" and "view modes" titled "tabs." The setting is initially off, but can be activated and further tweaked if desired. This will be unobtrusive to the users who don't want tabs because they can skip over the option and easily accessible for those who do.
@Jorden: Thanks for the use cases with the reasoning why split view is no alternative for you. This was constructive input and I've added this to my use cases list for tabs. Regarding the other topics (Konqueror, release cycle, ...): I got your points, but as you said: let's just close this topic here. @Patcito: > I don't think konqueror3 tabs config is so terrible (at least > for the user), it only has two checkbox and an > "advanced option" button that leads to 7 checkbox. I did not mean that the Konqueror tabs "configuration", I've meant the number of menu entries: Konqueror has a "New Tab" menu entry in "Location" and the entries "New Tab", "Duplicate Current Tab", "Detach Current Tab", "Close Current Tab", "Move Tab Left", "Move Tab Right" in the "Window" menu. That are 7 menu entries for one feature and this is something where I have to check whether the balance of introducing this feature vs. introducing menu clutter is worth to be implemented. My current point of view is that 7 menu entries are not needed for tabs (e. g. in Firefox there is only one "New Tab" entry, the rest is done by the context menu + drag and drop). This I think could work very well for Dolphin too :-) I'm not concerned about the number of configuration options: whether there are 2 or 10 does not matter as long as long as each of the option provides a solution for given use cases.
SVN commit 796101 by ppenz: "New Tab" menu + some related code ;-) BUG: 143995 M +153 -68 dolphinmainwindow.cpp M +28 -12 dolphinmainwindow.h M +1 -0 dolphinui.rc WebSVN link: http://websvn.kde.org/?view=rev&revision=796101
I've discussed this topic today with David Faure (= Konqueror maintainer) and I got the OK for adding this feature into Dolphin. I've just committed a patch: now Dolphin offers tabs. Please note there is still a lot to do (e. g. currently it's not even possible to close the tabs...), but I'll fix this until KDE 4.1. I still decided to set this bug to FIXED already to prevent any further discussions ;-) So I hope that we are all happy now :-)
On Sat, Apr 12, 2008 at 10:14 AM, Peter Penz <peter.penz@gmx.at> wrote: > So I hope that we are all happy now :-) Yes we are, thanx and congrats!
@Peter Thanks... I'm glad that this is resolved. Regarding the 7 menu entries, taking a page from Firefox's book would be a good idea. I understand what you meant now by menu clutter, and it could definitely be slimmed down. Firefox doesn't even offer the detach option, you could get rid of move left and right by using a "drag tab to place" feature, Duplicating tabs (if people even use it) could be done by a similar "Drag tab to empty pare of tab bar" feature. The rest are simple. Thanks again for the commit
Peter, the context menu will work fine with everyone. I suppose that we all know how to close a tab. But just keep in mind that FF has a very good tabs options context menu. Do not forget to add options for shortcuts :)
@Peter Tselios: > But just keep in mind that FF has a very good tabs options context menu. > Do not forget to add options for shortcuts :) Which tab options from Firefox should be added from your point of view? Honestly speaking I really was not sure which options should be provided in a file manager. E. g. "Reload all tabs" is useful for the web, but for file management I think it's more a corner case. The "bookmark" entries also are not a must have from my point of view, but I'm not sure...
Why don't we make a list and go from there? Obviously we *need* a new tab and a close tab entry at the least. From there, for file management, an option to close other tabs I think would be useful. Let's say I'm looking in my home directory for something at the same time I'm downloading a music album and it finishes. I open my downloads directory in a new tab and my music directory in anew tab, drag and drop, then I want to close these other tabs and go back to just looking in my home directory. An undo close tab option would be nice in a context menu. I think we can safely do away with the duplicate and detach options. The point of tabs is not to have multiple windows, so I don't think people will miss detaching them, and if no duplicating tabs option makes a racket, you could do something like dragging a tab to open space on the tab bar opens it or something like that (a la dragging a URL or link to the tab bar). What's left after that is where to put buttons and menu entries. Konqueror only has *one* entry in the Location menu, which is new tab. I think that would be sane in Dolphin. On the tab bar, there's a new tab and close tab button. That seems to be part of the widget itself (I haven't used Qt much, so I don't know). From there, the rest could go in a context menu accessible from the tab bar. I don't care that much, but some people might want an option to hide the tab bar if there's only one tab open. I kind of like always having the tab bar there, but other people might not. Also, the middle click to open in new tab is a must. It just reduces the amount of time doing new tab operations takes. Thanks.
Well, let see: In order to keep the interface as tidy as possible, in my opinion, the best approach is to have options in the 'right click' context menu. Which options? Let's see: - Closed tabs list. How many times you closed by accident a tab? Personally, many times, thus a must have. - Lock/Protection tab IS useful, but I use it rarely. - Bookmarks: I use bookmarks a lot. - New/close: A must. - Copy: Copy location or even better tab's entries as text is VERY useful. My work requires to copy the contents of a directory for various reasons. I can do that from a console but why not have in my FM? The reload is not that important, I can leave without that. Any other ideas?