Version: (using KDE KDE 3.1.5) Installed from: Gentoo Packages OS: Linux I would be great to be able to have sub groups.. For example.. I can have a group called Work People.. under that, have my different departments I have here with contacts under them..
Subject: Re: [Kopete-devel] New: Be able to add sub groups to groups This will be *VERY* hard to implement, because hardly any protocol supports it for the server side contact list. Though I agree it might be useful I doubt it's worth the considerable effort and code complexity it brings.
This shouldn't stop us, since the majority of Kopete's protocols don't need server side lists. If the list is server side then the protocol could just flatten the top level group.
I forgot the groups are supported on the server side... If at least, then, is there some way of creating a group, say Work People. Then say I want Iatwork login to go in that group with its groups?? That would actually work better i think. Hope I am clear..
Subject: Re: [Kopete-devel] Be able to add sub groups to groups On Friday 30 January 2004 20:04, Jason Keirstead wrote: > This shouldn't stop us, since the majority of Kopete's protocols > don't need server side lists. Where do you get this FUD from? Protocols _with_ serverside list: 1. aim 2. gadu 3. icq 4. jabber 5. msn 6. yahoo Protocols without: 1. irc 2. sms 3. winpopup That makes it TWICE as much protocols with serverside list than without. Really, the complexity of supporting this properly isn't worth the hassle IMO.
Subject: Re: [Kopete-devel] Be able to add sub groups to groups > Protocols _with_ serverside list: > > 1. aim > 2. gadu > 3. icq > 4. jabber > 5. msn > 6. yahoo > > Protocols without: > > 1. irc > 2. sms > 3. winpopup > > That makes it TWICE as much protocols with serverside list than without. Not quite accurate. I feel you suffer from MSN syndrome... just because something is not possible in MSN does not mean it should be abandoned everywhere. Protocols that need server side list to function: MSN Protocols that can function with or without a server-side list (and BTW, who should have list synching as an option) OSCAR Jabber Protocols that do not have a server side list: iChat IRC SMS WinPopup Protocols I don't know enough about to say which of the first two they fall in: Yahoo Gadu Even if the last two *need* a server-side list, that still makes 4 protocols that don't to 3 that need one. And even if you lump Oscar and Jabber with the first 3, that is still only a 5/4 ratio. *PLUS* Jabber's server-side list *can* have nested groups if the server implements JEP-0083, which some clients and servers do already support (see TkJabber, Miranda for example) So you want to cripple Kopete's group functionality because 4 out of 9 protocols (maybe) can't handle nested groups? Other multi-protocol clients like Miranda do this and it works fine. Like I said it'd be trivial, the protocols with crippled lists can just flatten the groups when the export them to the server.
Subject: Re: [Kopete-devel] Be able to add sub groups to groups On Friday 30 January 2004 23:04, Jason Keirstead wrote: > Not quite accurate. I feel you suffer from MSN syndrome... just because > something is not possible in MSN does not mean it should be abandoned > everywhere. I don't think the distinction between requiring a server side list or just merely supporting it matters at all. It explains your wording in the previous comment, but that still doesn't change the fact that 6 out of 9 protocols have support for server side lists, of which only one supports nested groups. That means that we need ugly flattening code in 5 out of 9 plugins to sync properly to and from the server. What if I move user Foo to group A/B/C here and then reconnect at work? How is the nested group stored? How does Kopete know if I mean a nested group or a literal '/' character (or whatever other delimiter)? How can we avoid a ton of code duplication in the syncing and flattening? How do you associate the flattened group with Kopete's local group? How do you allow to have both a literal group "A/B/C" _AND_ a group A at the same time? Or worse, a group "B" inside "A" at the same time? Just some random questions to point out that this is not "trivial" and that "just flatten the groups when they export them to the server" is not easy to get right at all.
Subject: Re: [Kopete-devel] Be able to add sub groups to groups On January 30, 2004 07:05 pm, Martijn Klingens wrote: > ------- You are receiving this mail because: ------- > What if I move user Foo to group A/B/C here and then reconnect at work? > > How is the nested group stored? Like i said... *flattened* > How does Kopete know if I mean a nested group or a literal '/' character (or > whatever other delimiter)? What? What are you talking about here? > How can we avoid a ton of code duplication in the syncing and flattening? You flatten in libkopete. > How do you associate the flattened group with Kopete's local group? You don't have to, why would you? Server-side groups have unique IDs that are stored as address book field sin the contact list. That is how MSN etc. associate their groups with the Kopete groups. Since these protocols don't have nested groups it's a non issue. > How do you allow to have both a literal group "A/B/C" _AND_ a group A at the > same time? Or worse, a group "B" inside "A" at the same time? I really don't understand this one. You cant have the same group in more than one group, that's preposterous.
Subject: Re: [Kopete-devel] Be able to add sub groups to groups On Saturday 31 January 2004 16:09, Jason Keirstead wrote: > Like i said... *flattened* Exactly. But that can be done two ways. If you want to preserve proper grouping you store a group A inside a group B as a top-level group "A_B" on the server. What you do is ANOTHER way to flatten, you dismiss all subgroup information. That's the lazy man's approach, but is IMO unacceptable because it throws away important information. Now, with this explanantion, could you answer my questions again?
Now my contribution: I already implemented sub-groupping (i commited it, but it's commented) The only missing stuff is the loading from the contactlist.xml about protocol's server? we don't care. Every protocol handle their server contact list how they want, with or without support of sub-group / contact in multi groups / top-level group / ..... In that case, protocols can simply ignore that a group is a subgroup.
Subject: Re: [Kopete-devel] Be able to add sub groups to groups On Sunday 01 February 2004 10:52, Olivier Goffart wrote: > about protocol's server? we don't care. Every protocol handle their server > contact list how they want, with or without support of sub-group / contact > in multi groups / top-level group / ..... In that case, protocols can > simply ignore that a group is a subgroup. That's what Jason wants too, and I object. If I have a group Parent with the groups Child1 and Child2 in them I don't want, nor expect Kopete to store the people from Child1 and Child2 in the same group. That makes it impossible to sync the serverside list from another computer. Instead Kopete should create two folders Parent_Child1 and Parent_Child2 on the server somehow. That is much more complex, and hence the reason I don't like this feature at all. But throwing away this very importing information is even worse.
Subject: Re: [Kopete-devel] Be able to add sub groups to groups Am Sonntag, 1. Februar 2004 10:52 schrieb Olivier Goffart: > I already implemented sub-groupping (i commited it, but it's commented) > The only missing stuff is the loading from the contactlist.xml > > about protocol's server? we don't care. Every protocol handle their server > contact list how they want, And THAT sucks great time! Thanks to that "we don't care attitude" no protocol can properly sync its contactlist. If something goes wrong when changing the contactlist on oscar all Kopete can do is show a messagebox, it cannot revert the change though. That results in out-of-sync lists and causes headaches with contacts that are in different groups on server than in kopete. I'm strictly against complicating this in any case, I already hate the fact that a contact can be in multiple groups, it totally breaks serverside lists! Bye, Stefan aka mETz
Subject: Re: [Kopete-devel] Be able to add sub groups to groups On Sunday 01 February 2004 12:09, Stefan Gehn wrote: > Thanks to that "we don't care attitude" no protocol can properly sync its > contactlist. If something goes wrong when changing the contactlist on oscar > all Kopete can do is show a messagebox, it cannot revert the change though. > That results in out-of-sync lists and causes headaches with contacts that > are in different groups on server than in kopete. You got it :) > I'm strictly against complicating this in any case, I already hate the fact > that a contact can be in multiple groups, it totally breaks serverside > lists! Yeah, there should be a way to make that easier for you. Perhaps one group should be designated 'Primary' and if you ask for primaryGroup() you always get that one? Anyway, not relevant to this bug, if you reply please do that outside bugzilla.
I agree that this is a rather important feature. Not just because I sort my concert contacts under Concerts, then Band (currently I put the band name in the display name), but also for larger organizations requiring syncing with complex organization of their employees. What protocols want and do shouldn't matter: it is actually Kopete's goal to shield the user from protocol-specific nonsense, is it not?
> What protocols want and do shouldn't matter: it is actually Kopete's goal to > shield the user from protocol-specific nonsense, is it not? Feel free to shield users from what you call protocol-specific nonsense but you probably will never make it usable for people who use their contactlist on more than one machine as the serverside representation will be quite broken.
*** Bug 97842 has been marked as a duplicate of this bug. ***
The way Miranda does it, is to create groups like group1 group2/subgroup1 group2/subgroup2 group3/subgroup3 So if you decide to go for a similar solution, it would be nice, if you used the "/" character, too. This way, a kopete user who has to use windows can go with miranda and find the same subgrouping.
>What protocols want and do shouldn't matter: it is actually Kopete's goal to > shield the user from protocol-specific nonsense, is it not? > Feel free to shield users from what you call protocol-specific nonsense but >you probably will never make it usable for people who use their contactlist on >more than one machine as the serverside representation will be quite broken. Why not use a plugin (subgrouping) with a big red warning: only compatible with miranda/kopete. Therefore users of miranda/kopete could use this feature (and reduce mess ;-) ) other users shouldn't be worried about contact representation... Regards
*** Bug 126509 has been marked as a duplicate of this bug. ***
*** This bug has been confirmed by popular vote. ***
*** Bug 140378 has been marked as a duplicate of this bug. ***
*** Bug 140379 has been marked as a duplicate of this bug. ***
I submitted this on the wish list today. I was thinking on basic stuff like: Group Friends: We know that it exists on my MSN account and on my Yahoo account. So, in kopete, we send ALL contacts into the same Friends group, BUT, with 2 sub folders: Yahoo and Msn This does not require server side support, it's just like what happens now, but with sub folders for each IM protocol. Also, if intended on creating REAL sub-folders, they could be Local only, i mean, settings per computer... on the server side anyone can be a "Friend" but locally i can separate them and save the settings. Cheers
Yeah, subgroups would be great... And if some protocol does not support subgroups, it could be saved just in Kopete and on the server it could be saved in main group...