Version: 0.7.94 (using KDE 3.1.94 (CVS >= 20031206), compiled sources) Compiler: gcc version 3.3.1 (Mandrake Linux 9.2 3.3.1-2mdk) OS: Linux (i686) release 2.4.22-10mdk When chatting with someone, their display picture is always very very small.
Move the mouse over it, the full one is in the tooltip :) Martijn
Is this necessarily good usability wise? Shouldn't there at least be a setting to get it to normal size? I prefer the display picture normal size :-(
No, a toolbar is not meant to be 400 pixels high.
The previous CVS checkout of Kopete that I had had the display picture normal size and it fitted OK, no problems. And why then does MSN Messenger manage it no problems?
Subject: Re: [Kopete-devel] display picture when chatting is very small On Thursday 22 January 2004 22:18, maxo@myrealbox.com wrote: > The previous CVS checkout of Kopete that I had had the display picture > normal size and it fitted OK, no problems. And why then does MSN Messenger > manage it no problems? Heh, if it fitted ok for you you're probably the only one :) Most people complained about it, so now the default size is the normal height of a toolbar button.
Could you at least add an option for it? MSN Messenger manages it OK, so I guess Kopete should be able to as well.
Well, I just downloaded the CVS version and yes, the option to select the size for the display picture is there, but it doesn't work, the picture remains tiny. Me and many of my friends don't like the small picture at all, I mean, what is the point of making it so tiny? And what's with the 400-pixel-height toolbar? IMO the size of the picture is by-default 96x96 pixels, it's not so big. And why shouldn't the toolbar be at this width/height if it looks OK? The default should be similar to M$ MSN, i.e. normal-size display picture on the right side of the chat-window. H4rd-c0r3 power-users have no problems configuring it to their needs, but dumb-users only get mad at Kopete, if they have to look for a tiny picture at a totally wrong place.
We don't resemble MSN mess(enger), we have our own ideas of UI and cluttering up the window with huge images is not part of the KDE UI guidelines, sorry.
There isn't even a toolbar size of 96 pixels, the largest there is is Large (48x48). When I find out how to detect the current toolbar height I'll make the picture scale to it, so you can get it at 48x48 pixels by setting the toolbar to large. Anything beyond that is *NOT* the goal of a toolbar. The tooltip is used for that. Martijn
"huge images" they're not huge!
I think there is a little misunderstanding. The picture (size 48 or 96) is huge when it is put into the toolbar, above the main text-box. The picture (size 48 or 96) is NOT huge when it is put at the right side of the main text-box. I see now reason for it to conflict KDE UI guidelines, especially if there's an option to disable or minimize the size of the picture.
Subject: Re: [Kopete-devel] display picture when chatting is very small On Sunday 25 January 2004 13:39, Jaak Simm wrote: > The picture (size 48 or 96) is huge when it is put into the toolbar, above > the main text-box. Exactly. > The picture (size 48 or 96) is NOT huge when it is put at the right side of > the main text-box. I see now reason for it to conflict KDE UI guidelines, > especially if there's an option to disable or minimize the size of the > picture. And what would you put below it? Unused (in other words: wasted) space???
Yes, many others, as well as me, don't care a bit about the so-called "wasted" space. So, why shouldn't we have the option to "waste space" and set the picture size to 96x96? The main characteristic of Linux/KDE has always been configurability, so why should this be an exception?
Subject: Re: [Kopete-devel] display picture when chatting is very small Martijn Klingens wrote: >And what would you put below it? Unused (in other words: wasted) space??? > > I suggesed it a while ago, I propose making the Picture container a KDockWidget instead of a toolbar. Then people can still drag it wherever they want (even detach it), but the default can then be above the contact list, so you have 0 wasted space. Mockup of default layout: -------------------------------------------------------- | | Picture | | Chat View | | | |---------------| | | Members List | | | -------------------------------------------------------- | | | Text box | ---------------------------------------------------------
Subject: Re: [Kopete-devel] display picture when chatting is very small On Sunday 25 January 2004 17:32, Jason Keirstead wrote: > I suggesed it a while ago, I propose making the Picture container a > KDockWidget instead of a toolbar. Then people > can still drag it wherever they want (even detach it), but the default > can then be above the contact list, so you have 0 > wasted space. That doesn't help at all. It still wastes exactly the same space for me, because I don't use Kopete for multi-user chats (I use ksirc for IRC). I guess it could be added as an option for those who insist on permanently seeing those pictures, but the far less intrusive toolbar approach we have now should stay as well.
You have it aligned on the right. You fill the wasted space below the picture with two buttons - one labelled 'View Profile', the other 'Send Email'. (See the chat window of KMess [http://kmess.sf.net] to see the kind of thing that I mean).
Bad idea to fill wasted space with buttons that belong somewhere else.
Subject: Re: [Kopete-devel] display picture when chatting is very small I don't know. Adding a sidebar with stuff like that might be handy, but it's such a shameless MSN ripoff it's not even funny anymore. I think Kopete should not try to clone MSN. We have a lot of unique features (meta contacts, plugins, multiple protocols) that make this hard to do in the first place, and even when possible I don't think we need to go after MS in this case. The first thing I always did at work with MSN is turning off the sidebar. It only clutters my view and takes away my attention from what I am actually using a messaging client for, which is the chat view. But my personal opinion only matters in that I will not be going to implement this myself. If you can come up with a patch for Kopete that has it configurable and that is of sufficient technical quality I'm more than happy to consider it as an option.
Well, where is the code for all this? I could give it a shot :)
Subject: Re: [Kopete-devel] display picture when chatting is very small On Sunday 25 January 2004 21:48, Sven-Erik Petermann wrote: > Well, where is the code for all this? I could give it a shot :) Currently it's all in the MSN plugin, because the rest of Kopete knows nothing about buddy icons yet. This is scheduled to change in the next version though, so be prepared to be coding against a moving target, API-wise :)
I don't see the problem with a sidebar like in the KMess chat window if it can be switched off. Same with a large display picture.
I'm all in favour of putting the MSN buddy icon into a dockwindow, so long as the API changes required to allow creating dockwidgets in the chat window are nice enough. This will, of course, break the libkopete API freeze. Having it in a toolbar is just a hack as far as I can see; Kopete already uses UI elements for the wrong things too much (see Login field in Enter Password dialog, checkbox for "This user has me on his contact list" on MSN and so forth). A dock widget will let people put the image wherever they want to, or hide it, or resize it, as they see fit.
Subject: Re: [Kopete-devel] MSN display picture should not be in a toolbar On Tuesday 27 January 2004 03:43, Richard Smith wrote: > Having it in a toolbar is just a hack as far as I can see; Kopete already > uses UI elements for the wrong things too much (see Login field in Enter > Password dialog, checkbox for "This user has me on his contact list" on MSN > and so forth). A dock widget will let people put the image wherever they > want to, or hide it, or resize it, as they see fit. ... and forces me to either disable the icon completely or waste a lot of my precious screen real estate. I strongly object to removing the toolbar button, which is non-intrusive and just fills a bit of otherwise unused space. As an extra option the sidebar is fine with me like I said, but not at the expense of the toolbar button.
I think you're basing your bias on your already re-configured toolbars. Please remember that when initially run, this picture is in a toolbar *all by itself*, since it doesn't use the main toolbar. This results in just as much, if not more, wasted space then the dock widget would, especially since the dock widget could be detached from the window altogether if wanted. It also looks extremely dumb having this whole toolbar for one picture.
Subject: Re: [Kopete-devel] MSN display picture should not be in a toolbar On Tuesday 27 January 2004 21:02, Jason Keirstead wrote: > I think you're basing your bias on your already re-configured > toolbars. Admittedly, I forgot that my local Kopete doesn't have a separate toolbar because I'm trying to hack that out, but that CVS indeed still has its own toolbar. > Please remember that when initially run, That's what I want to change though, the whole toolbar should go and the button should be right-aligned in the main toolbar like e.g. Konqueror's animation. Now if I only knew how to do that... > This results in just as much, if not more, wasted space then the dock widget > would, That's not entirely true. Even when it's its own toolbar it's only some 22 pixels tall and some 50 pixels wide. That's a far cry from a 96 pixel wide dock area that takes the full height of my chat window.
Subject: Re: [Kopete-devel] MSN display picture should not be in a toolbar On January 27, 2004 4:08 pm, Martijn Klingens wrote: > That's not entirely true. Even when it's its own toolbar it's only some 22 > pixels tall and some 50 pixels wide. > > That's a far cry from a 96 pixel wide dock area that takes the full height > of my chat window. But that would just be the initial size. That is the whole point. The dock area is sizeable. You can leave it at the 96 pixel default if you like a larger picture (which it seems most do from recent reports), or you can size it to as small as 50 pixels, or even 20 pixels wide if you want. You can even rip it off the window and show it on the desktop. With a toolbar, you don't have these options, unless you resize your whole main toolbar. You're stuck with the small picture which many people don't like. It is much less flexable.
Subject: Re: [Kopete-devel] MSN display picture should not be in a toolbar On Tuesday 27 January 2004 21:18, Jason Keirstead wrote: > But that would just be the initial size. That is the whole point. The dock > area is sizeable. You can leave it at the 96 pixel default if you like a > larger picture (which it seems most do from recent reports), or you can > size it to as small as 50 pixels, or even 20 pixels wide if you want. You > can even rip it off the window and show it on the desktop. Hmm, if it also shows a tooltip when it's smaller than the icon's real size I guess that might work. It still eats the full height of my chat window though, do you also have a solution for that? And perhaps a screenshot, I wonder what those dock areas look like, apparently not like toolbars. > With a toolbar, you don't have these options, unless you resize your whole > main toolbar. You're stuck with the small picture which many people don't > like. It is much less flexable. I don't get why people want the full size visible 24/7. What's so bad about the tooltip of you want to take a closer look?
I think this screenshot has a dock area (might be wrong though): http://kmess.sourceforge.net/images/screenshots/chat.png
Subject: Re: [Kopete-devel] MSN display picture should not be in a toolbar On January 27, 2004 4:24 pm, Martijn Klingens wrote: > Hmm, if it also shows a tooltip when it's smaller than the icon's real size > I guess that might work. > > It still eats the full height of my chat window though, do you also have a > solution for that? You could easily make it dockable on top of the chat view, thus allowing it to take up vertical space instead. Not sure if you could add a dock area inside a toolbar, it could be possible.. > And perhaps a screenshot, I wonder what those dock areas > look like, apparently not like toolbars. Run kate :P The sidebar in Kate is a dock widget, as is the bottom bar. Kate has dock areas at all 4 sides of the window. FYI our current members list is already a dock widget, it just has the dock widget header turned off for simplicity. If you comment out the call in chatview.cpp to setEnableDocking( DockNone ), then the dockwidget header will appear and you can move it left and right just by dragging it. > I don't get why people want the full size visible 24/7. What's so bad about > the tooltip of you want to take a closer look? Duno. It' s not really important to me personally, but seems to be to a lot of people. My reason for wanting it in a dock widget is so I can have it over top of the members list where I think it would look much nicer.
Subject: Re: [Kopete-devel] MSN display picture should not be in a toolbar On Tuesday 27 January 2004 22:47, Jason Keirstead wrote: > My reason for wanting it in a dock widget is so I can have it over top of > the members list where I think it would look much nicer. Below I'd say then, because I presume the widget shows the image of the highlighted item of the chat members list in multi user chats and there's no members list in one-to-one chats.
Subject: RE: [Kopete-devel] MSN display picture should not be in atoolbar > ------- Additional Comments From klingens@kde.org 2004-01-28 18:57 ------- > Subject: Re: [Kopete-devel] MSN display picture should not be in a toolbar > > On Tuesday 27 January 2004 22:47, Jason Keirstead wrote: > > My reason for wanting it in a dock widget is so I can have it over top of > > the members list where I think it would look much nicer. > > Below I'd say then, because I presume the widget shows the image of the > highlighted item of the chat members list in multi user chats and there's no > members list in one-to-one chats. > _______________________________________________ I sugest that on single user chat ,instead of the members list , displaying some contact or metacontact info, like statuses or something to whattever liking
Subject: Re: [Kopete-devel] MSN display picture should not be in a toolbar On January 28, 2004 4:43 pm, Iori Yagami wrote: > > Below I'd say then, because I presume the widget shows the image of the > > highlighted item of the chat members list in multi user chats and there's > > no > > > members list in one-to-one chats. > > _______________________________________________ > > I sugest that on single user chat ,instead of the members list , displaying > some contact or metacontact info, like statuses or something to whattever > liking This discussion doesn't really matter, since as I said, it is a dock widget. You can put it whereever you like, above, below, aside, ripped off, wherever. Hence why a dock widget is ideal.
I use 0.8.90 and I can put the toolbar or whatever on the right side of the window, but I still can't get a full-sized picture! :( I would really like that.
Would it be possible to move the display picture to sit above each person's name in the chat member's list? Thanks, David
IMO the tooltip for that particular button should be immediate, and the button should be clickable, enabling the user to save the image where he/she wants.
*** Bug 85841 has been marked as a duplicate of this bug. ***
Hmm why put the image in the top right corner ? The picture would fit neatly beside the type area, at the right or left (like amsn) No wasted space, big image. How about that ? :/ And also, in the toolbar we could have a tiny image like it is right now, but with our own pic (always forget what I have - ok it's not really important but well, would be nice)
Why does this have to be only for MSN protocol? I think there should be a right sidebar showing info about the people in a chat. Currently, not only the picture size is too small, when there are several people in a conversation there's just one picture. Also, this should be a part of Kopete, not just a part of the MSN protocol. Other protocols like ICQ also supprot pictures
Putting the picture at the right or left of the typing area (as in comment 37) makes sense to me; no wasted space, big picture. If it's configurable, and scales to the height of the typing area, that seems ideal. Applying the same policy to other protocol's buddy icons would make sense.
It would be very cool if a chat dialog similar to that of Kmess (see http://kmess.sourceforge.net/images/screenshots/chat.png ) could be implemented.
now the support of the display picture in in libkopete. We just need to add correct widget to the chatwindow
I think the toolbar for the display picture wastes horizontal space, so it makes no sense either. You wouldn't even notice if the person you are chatting with has changed his/her display picture. If a toolbar is not meant to be that big, maybe that's a reason why a display picture should not be in a toolbar. Let us choose, please. KDE is for enjoying it, isn't it? It should not be a reason for having a 'not pleasing' feature in such a good application as Kopete is. Thanks!
When will an option be put in to get the display image larger? Cheers, M.
> I don't get why people want the full size visible 24/7. What's so bad about > the tooltip of you want to take a closer look? Well I know. The younger ones of my buddies change displaynames like crazy every now and then. Some days the change it all the time, every fifth minute or so. Influenced by each other they change names that look similar sometimes too. This might get annoying, and kopete can't help with that. But IF the buddy icon was displayed LARGE and near the typing area where my keystrokes go in, I would have a greater chance not sending messages to the wrong person, which sometimes might be important in order to not create a lot of confusion/misunderstandings. A suggestion comes to my mind: If this really is an issue about wasted space, maybe it is possible to display the picture inside the typing area. Suppose it was in the lower right corner. One could make it disappear if the caret moves too close to the picture, or fade it to the background so one can type overlapping it with the text. And when the message is sent, the picture comes back not faded anymore. Now, I haven't looked at the sources at all. I am a beginner in KDE programming so I can't say if it is too much work to implement this or possible at all. Add that I look at this as an application wide feature to be enabled whenever plugins support buddy icons. I am not strictly thinking about the MSN plugin.
Most of the people here wrote that having the buddy icon beside the send window is a good idea and I agree with it. I know that the KDE devs do not want to waste any space and this would not be a waste. You could still type your messages the usual way. I would really ask the devs to think about this solution or maybe let the users vote for it if this is an option.
Space wasting is an absurd motivation to me: I don't know how you are used to, but in a IM I don't usally write very very very long sentences but as maximum 50-70 chars, and normally this number is 20-25, so cutting a 128x128 area on the left (or right) side of the typing zone wouldn't hurt anyone.
space waste... absurd motivation... I often paste quite large source code snippets in there to show people things. And I find myself very often write quite extensive natural language expressions just to make sure the message can't be misunderstood. Just look at my post above. Quite lengthy. And when working with complicated text, like source code, it is nice to have the same width both on the message scroll and the typing area, so I can see what will become. (at least in my end of the chat) When I have several chats open, and I prefer them in separate windows, space is really something valuable. Further, If my vision is a little blurry, I can benefit from larger fonts. And then again, it is a waste to have large rectangular areas that the text can't go into. So I like full-sized buddy icons near the typing area, but I am also against space waste. If any text editing widget type would support doing what I suggested in my post above, I think it is the best solution. (so far)
Well if you really need all that space (usually you already know what you've just pasted from other sources), you can maximize the chat window. It would be a good compromise. I really don't get this wasted space issue...I mean, we currently could have photos showed in the tree list...isn't wasted space? We're talking about a little-medium size picture, not a 640x480 image appended to the chat window.
No one asks for it to be permanent. It could simply be an option in the configuration and that would make everyone happy and I do not think that Kopete would be too bloated because of one option like this. So everyone would be happy, the ones that want the buddy icon and others that do not want it. The suggestion Jonas made sounds quite need but I think it would be a bit difficult to integrate it but I may be wrong though. But there are nearly 500 votes and I think that indicates that quite some users want that Kopete changes the way it handles buddy icons right now.
You know, if we would solve the problem whereby the MSN picture is not in the MSN contact tooltip (currently it is only in the MC tooltip), it would help this issue a lot as well. Then all someone would have to do is hover over the person's nickname in the chat window itself to see the photo. Also - even in Kopete now - you can use styles that have the photo in the chat itself. See the iChat style for an example.
In fact - the fact that you can use styles that show the photo resolves this bug. If you would like the photo to be inside more styles, then read up on how to create/edit styles at http://kopete.kde.org/index.php?page=index.php?page=howtos&howto=Chatwindow_Styles
Ok, I've just chosen iChat as chat window style and opened a new chat window with a contact using a photo. So, where is the photo now? (I do perfectly know that I have to receive a message from that dude to get the photo showed, so this is why this bug has been opened). Moreover, iChat is a copycat style that would never be defaulted (and this is a good thing, don't get me wrong). I think that this you have showed is a paliative solution.
> ------- Ok, I've just chosen iChat as chat window style and opened a new > chat window with a contact using a photo. So, where is the photo now? > Are you using KDE 3.4 or CVS HEAD?
>> ------- Ok, I've just chosen iChat as chat window style and opened a new >> chat window with a contact using a photo. So, where is the photo now? > Are you using KDE 3.4 or CVS HEAD? I was ironic :) BTW since I'm using 3.4, what's the behaviour in CVS? I think that receiving a message is always necessary to get the contact image showed in the chat log, isn't it? can you link/attach a screenshot to show us how the new behaviour is that made you close the bug?
With regards to the display picture taking up too much space if it's on the right of the typing area, what would be the problem if it was possible to make it disappear, eg. like MSN Messenger?
Why bother when it can be beside every message, like in iChat or Adium? Example, see http://www.keirstead.org/kopete_ichat.png
I dunno why Jason , you don
On March 18, 2005 07:33 pm, Iori Yagami wrote: > I dunno why Jason , you don
Ok, so this is the "problem" I mentioned in comment #54 The problem here is that you need to receive a message to get the picture actually showed in the dialog. Moreover, personally I find that 2-3-4 buddy picture displayed all over the dialog is not too much "polished". Yes, this is a possible chat-style, it could be cool for someone and it's good that it is there but I think that what described in comment #39 would fit better for a default.
You don't need the photo all over the window. Someone could just as easily create a chat style where the photo remains fixated in the upper left corner all the time. The point is that now that the photo is there, you can do anything with it. And if *that* is not enough - if you want to be able to see a photo without anyone saying anything at all - then why do you want a photo in the chat of a person you are not talking with? Why would you even have the window open, when you can just look in the contact list?
> You don't need the photo all over the window. Someone could just as easily > create a chat style where the photo remains fixated in the upper left corner > all the time. > The point is that now that the photo is there, you can do anything with it. This sound interesting :) > And if *that* is not enough - if you want to be able to see a photo without > anyone saying anything at all - then why do you want a photo in the chat of a > person you are not talking with? Why would you even have the window open, > when you can just look in the contact list? The issue is that I've not already started to chat with this person but I will do it soon (as I opened the chat window) and it would be simply a "cool factor" having the photo already displayed. Obviously we're are talking of a 1to1 chat, because in a chat room this new behaviour you posted is definitely perfect. :)
> And if *that* is not enough - if you want to be able to see a photo without > anyone saying anything at all - then why do you want a photo in the chat of a > person you are not talking with? Why would you even have the window open, > when you can just look in the contact list? I'd open it only to see the display picture. Sometimes it depends on the picture whether I want to start chatting or not.
On March 19, 2005 05:13 am, Sven-Erik Petermann wrote: > I'd open it only to see the display picture. Sometimes it depends on the > picture whether I want to start chatting or not. ??? But you can see the picture in the contact list, *and* in their tooltip ??!
I'm using KDE 3.4 and I haven't seen such a feature. If you are talking about a CVS version, then please say so. I was hoping to see some improvement in the very recent release. Oh, silly old me, I guess.
So the bug is shown as resolved but I am still not clear in what way it was resolved and if it is in the KDE 3.4 release or CVS. Is the solution that I have to create my own chatstyle? Or is there something ready to use?
The bug is resolved because the bug is filed with respect that a) the picture is very small, b) It is only in the toolbar - The picture is available in at leat 3 different ways now - In the chat window toolbar, in the chat window itself via a style that supports it, and via the contact tooltip. - If you want the photo in the chat window in some kind of fixed position you are free to do so, it is not that hard to create and modify chat styles. There is even a HOWTO on the Kopete web site. - There is no need to add new widgets to the chat window, and as far as I am concerned, this is never going to be done, because frankly it is a waste of effort, and there are more important things to do that try to make Kopete into an MSN clone, which is what it seems is the only goal of this bug now. - If you or someone else wants to tae the time to do this, feel free, in KDE 3.4 Kopete chat windows are plugins and anyone can make any chat window layout they want and post it on kde-look.org But as far as I am concerned, this bug and issue are closed - I am not going to be replying to this bug anymore, it is getting ridiculous.
On March 20, 2005 10:55 am, Jason Keirstead wrote: > - The picture is available in at leat 3 different ways now - In the chat > window toolbar, in the chat window itself via a style that supports it, and > via the contact tooltip. Oh - actually also a fourth way - directly inside the contact list, with the Detailed View mode.
I'm slightly confused - having to write code like that described in http://kopete.kde.org/index.php?page=index.php?page=howtos&howto=Chatwindow_Styles isn't acceptable for end-users. So what is the other alternative for users wishing to have the display picture large in the chat window?
*** Bug 110590 has been marked as a duplicate of this bug. ***
I thought this app was being developed and supported by sensible people. You have made a gorgeous problem of a really simple thing. It's not about resembling MSN Messenger, nor even for KDE UI guidelines, it's basic usability and more than that, is the way people wants the application to be. If open source is about collaboration and people wants a big picture, why not? Why do you set your strong position against majority, who ask for a simple change, a big picture that let you know easily who you are chatting to, or to put there whatever you want to show to the other person. Isn't that easy enough... or is all that chatter just to distract your inability to do so?
@70 I think personal insults towards the devs serves no one. It won't get *you* what you want nor will it encourage the devs to continue developing this great IM client. If you really don't like it then switch to another client that gives you what you want. It was mention above that you can use different themes that to give you exactly what you want. Here is one you might like: http://www.kde-look.org/content/show.php/Glossyk?content=40797 Please do remember that a lot of people spend an enormous amount of their (free)time to create this great piece of software and you really should honor this