Version: (using KDE KDE 3.0.99) Installed from: Debian testing/unstable Packages My Oh My! How this (default) GUI (/skin) needs some TLC. Sorry ;) Starting with the menu's. Taking a look at the "Edit" menu reveals not a single entry that has anything to do with editing. I suggest using "View" instead. Toolbars. The quit button needs to go because users do not expect it there. More importantly the well known big "X" and File->Quit methods are available for quiting the application. Another oddity is the "Show/hide menubar" button. This is also unexpected. How many people would want to remove the menubar when not in fullscreen mode? If you want to retain this feature I'd suggest allowing it to be activated through the suggested "View" menu and dynamically adding/removing it from the "Video Toolbar" The slider toolbar and general toolbar should be grouped together and not be seperated by the movie thats playing. This is because users who are mucking around with the navigational controls are also likely to want to touch the navigation bar. The statusbar needs to be visibly seperated from other toolbars to indicate it's presence. Also of great help would be a default status message when no movie has been opened such as "No movie opened.". The timer font is rather large. You might want to consider using the default font instead and increasing the size of the navigation bar proportionally. Final suggestion: consolidate "Video Toolbar" and "Kaboodle Toolbar". No need for a toolbar with only a single button.
Subject: Re: New: usability: toolbar layout and buttons Since you brought it up again, I just decided to reply now. :-) On Thursday January 30, 2003 10:26, William Leese wrote: > My Oh My! How this (default) GUI (/skin) needs some TLC. No, Kaboodle is a real user interface. I won't have a part of 'skins', I like KDE for its goal of user interface consistency and I regularly mock the horrid unusability of 'skins.' :-) > Starting with the menu's. Taking a look at the "Edit" menu reveals not a > single entry that has anything to do with editing. I suggest using > "View" instead. Well, there's at least one: Properties. Properties is editable. And the bulk of edit *has* no standard menu place. "Play" doesn't really fit anywhere, so I figure edit is as good as any place. > Toolbars. The quit button needs to go because users do not expect it > there. More importantly the well known big "X" and File->Quit methods > are available for quiting the application. You sure? What about the people who hide menu bars? (see below) > Another oddity is the "Show/hide menubar" button. This is also > unexpected. How many people would want to remove the menubar when not in > fullscreen mode? If you want to retain this feature I'd suggest allowing > it to be activated through the suggested "View" menu and dynamically > adding/removing it from the "Video Toolbar" It may not be unexpected to you, but it's certainly nice for those users who accidentally hide the menubar. Kaboodle is better where Konqueror fails: making the menu bar easy to bring back. Do you do user support? How to bring back a hidden menu is a common user question. And no, the asnwer isn't to make the menu bar required to be present. I *have* had requests for the toggle, and in fact I've come to use it myself in Noatun Excellent. So it's staying. And the answer isn't to dynamically hide and remove GUI elements. Making it so that the user doesn't know what will be in the toolbar when just makes things harder on the user. > The slider toolbar and general toolbar should be grouped together and > not be seperated by the movie thats playing. This is because users who > are mucking around with the navigational controls are also likely to > want to touch the navigation bar. Slider isn't a toolbar, but you make a good case for video widget moving below the slider. > The statusbar needs to be visibly seperated from other toolbars to > indicate it's presence. Also of great help would be a default status > message when no movie has been opened such as "No movie opened.". Statusbar look is controlled by kdelibs and your widget style, not by kaboodle. And kaboodle is not just a movie player. > The timer font is rather large. You might want to consider using the > default font instead and increasing the size of the navigation bar > proportionally. I could do that, but why is it bad to be large? It's one of the very most important things in the whole app.. the one bit of status information. > Final suggestion: consolidate "Video Toolbar" and "Kaboodle Toolbar". No > need for a toolbar with only a single button. Technically impractical. Video settings are controlled not by kaboodlepart, but rather by KVideoWidget in libartskde. For me to hide the KVideoWidget ones and add new ones in Kaboodle would be a bug-prone duplication of UI. Also, in the future, please make separate reports for separate issues, for easier tracking of what's fixed, and to allow me to transfer other reports to other products (like your dislike for the Show Menubar menu position).
Subject: kdemultimedia/kaboodle CVS commit by neil: Move video widget below the Slider. CCMAIL: 53682@bugs.kde.org M +3 -3 view.cpp 1.13 --- kdemultimedia/kaboodle/view.cpp #1.12:1.13 @@ -71,10 +71,10 @@ Kaboodle::View::View(QWidget *parent, co box->show(); - video = new KVideoWidget(player, box); - connect(video, SIGNAL(adaptSize(int, int)), this, SLOT(calculateSize(int, int))); - QWidget *sliderBox = new QWidget(box); sliderBox->setFocusPolicy(QWidget::ClickFocus); sliderBox->setAcceptDrops(true); + + video = new KVideoWidget(player, box); + connect(video, SIGNAL(adaptSize(int, int)), this, SLOT(calculateSize(int, int))); QHBoxLayout *layout = new QHBoxLayout(sliderBox);
Subject: Re: usability: toolbar layout and buttons Neil Stevens wrote: > ------- You are receiving this mail because: ------- > You reported the bug, or are watching the reporter. > > http://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=53682 > >>Starting with the menu's. Taking a look at the "Edit" menu reveals not a >>single entry that has anything to do with editing. I suggest using >>"View" instead. > > Well, there's at least one: Properties. Properties is editable. And the > bulk of edit *has* no standard menu place. "Play" doesn't really fit > anywhere, so I figure edit is as good as any place. File -> Properties? :) >>Toolbars. The quit button needs to go because users do not expect it >>there. More importantly the well known big "X" and File->Quit methods >>are available for quiting the application. > > You sure? What about the people who hide menu bars? (see below) I'm very, very sure on this one. Please remove this in favour of the traditional "X" which is available at all times except fullscreen mode. >>Another oddity is the "Show/hide menubar" button. This is also >>unexpected. How many people would want to remove the menubar when not in >>fullscreen mode? If you want to retain this feature I'd suggest allowing >>it to be activated through the suggested "View" menu and dynamically >>adding/removing it from the "Video Toolbar" > > It may not be unexpected to you, but it's certainly nice for those users > who accidentally hide the menubar. Kaboodle is better where Konqueror > fails: making the menu bar easy to bring back. Do you do user support? > How to bring back a hidden menu is a common user question. Actually, I do. And you're right about unhiding the menubar. Then again people shouldn't hide menubars.. but I'll drop it. > And no, the asnwer isn't to make the menu bar required to be present. I > *have* had requests for the toggle, and in fact I've come to use it myself > in Noatun Excellent. So it's staying. > > And the answer isn't to dynamically hide and remove GUI elements. Making > it so that the user doesn't know what will be in the toolbar when just > makes things harder on the user. You're right. I can agree with not removing the functionality. How about moving it to the same toolbar as "Fullscreen" instead? This would somewhat minimize accidential clickage.. >>The statusbar needs to be visibly seperated from other toolbars to >>indicate it's presence. Also of great help would be a default status >>message when no movie has been opened such as "No movie opened.". > > Statusbar look is controlled by kdelibs and your widget style, not by > kaboodle. And a simple seperator? > And kaboodle is not just a movie player. "No media/file opened."? :) > >>The timer font is rather large. You might want to consider using the >>default font instead and increasing the size of the navigation bar >>proportionally. > > I could do that, but why is it bad to be large? It's one of the very most > important things in the whole app.. the one bit of status information. It really belongs in the status bar then, in a nice small font ;) It's bad to be large the moment it starts looks awkward where as a smaller font can do no harm and look more fitting. >>Final suggestion: consolidate "Video Toolbar" and "Kaboodle Toolbar". No >>need for a toolbar with only a single button. > > Technically impractical. Video settings are controlled not by > kaboodlepart, but rather by KVideoWidget in libartskde. > > For me to hide the KVideoWidget ones and add new ones in Kaboodle would be > a bug-prone duplication of UI. This fits well with the move 'hide menubar' button to the same toolbar as the fullscreen button. > Also, in the future, please make separate reports for separate issues, for > easier tracking of what's fixed, and to allow me to transfer other reports > to other products (like your dislike for the Show Menubar menu position). Will do. - wvl
Subject: Re: usability: toolbar layout and buttons On Friday January 31, 2003 09:23, William Leese wrote: ... > >>Toolbars. The quit button needs to go because users do not expect it > >>there. More importantly the well known big "X" and File->Quit methods > >>are available for quiting the application. > > > > You sure? What about the people who hide menu bars? (see below) > > I'm very, very sure on this one. Please remove this in favour of the > traditional "X" which is available at all times except fullscreen mode. The icon is not controlled by Kaboodle, sorry. It's just a standard action. So if you want an X as the icon, switch icon styles. > > And the answer isn't to dynamically hide and remove GUI elements. > > Making it so that the user doesn't know what will be in the toolbar > > when just makes things harder on the user. > > You're right. I can agree with not removing the functionality. How about > moving it to the same toolbar as "Fullscreen" instead? This would > somewhat minimize accidential clickage.. Even if I saw a connection between the two, that wouldn't be possible. Erect a mental wall between Kaboodle and the Video Toolbar. The Video Toolbar is in its own world. Kaboodle is just embedding that widget. Sorry. > >>The statusbar needs to be visibly seperated from other toolbars to > >>indicate it's presence. Also of great help would be a default status > >>message when no movie has been opened such as "No movie opened.". > > > > Statusbar look is controlled by kdelibs and your widget style, not by > > kaboodle. > > And a simple seperator? Which will just result in a double separation for widget styles that separate the status bar, no? > > > And kaboodle is not just a movie player. > > "No media/file opened."? :) Doesn't that just state the obvious though? > It really belongs in the status bar then, in a nice small font ;) It's > bad to be large the moment it starts looks awkward where as a smaller > font can do no harm and look more fitting. But if I use a small font, then I think the whole thing will look unbalanced. The slider will overwhelm the time display. > >>Final suggestion: consolidate "Video Toolbar" and "Kaboodle Toolbar". > >> No need for a toolbar with only a single button. > > > > Technically impractical. Video settings are controlled not by > > kaboodlepart, but rather by KVideoWidget in libartskde. > > > > For me to hide the KVideoWidget ones and add new ones in Kaboodle > > would be a bug-prone duplication of UI. > > This fits well with the move 'hide menubar' button to the same toolbar > as the fullscreen button. I disagree, but see above.
Subject: Re: usability: toolbar layout and buttons Neil Stevens wrote: > ------- You are receiving this mail because: ------- > You reported the bug, or are watching the reporter. > > http://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=53682 > > > > > ------- Additional Comments From neil@qualityassistant.com 2003-02-01 10:00 ------- > Subject: Re: usability: toolbar layout and buttons > > On Friday January 31, 2003 09:23, William Leese wrote: > ... > >>>>Toolbars. The quit button needs to go because users do not expect it >>>>there. More importantly the well known big "X" and File->Quit methods >>>>are available for quiting the application. >>> >>>You sure? What about the people who hide menu bars? (see below) >> >>I'm very, very sure on this one. Please remove this in favour of the >>traditional "X" which is available at all times except fullscreen mode. > > The icon is not controlled by Kaboodle, sorry. It's just a standard > action. So if you want an X as the icon, switch icon styles. I'm not talking about the icon. I meant the close button in the titlebar. > >>>And the answer isn't to dynamically hide and remove GUI elements. >>>Making it so that the user doesn't know what will be in the toolbar >>>when just makes things harder on the user. >> >>You're right. I can agree with not removing the functionality. How about >>moving it to the same toolbar as "Fullscreen" instead? This would >>somewhat minimize accidential clickage.. > > Even if I saw a connection between the two, that wouldn't be possible. > Erect a mental wall between Kaboodle and the Video Toolbar. The Video > Toolbar is in its own world. Kaboodle is just embedding that widget. > Sorry. If I understand correctly this is purely a technical limitation? We can expect improvement in the future? >>>>The statusbar needs to be visibly seperated from other toolbars to >>>>indicate it's presence. Also of great help would be a default status >>>>message when no movie has been opened such as "No movie opened.". >>> >>>Statusbar look is controlled by kdelibs and your widget style, not by >>>kaboodle. >> >>And a simple seperator? > > Which will just result in a double separation for widget styles that > separate the status bar, no? Ah. I see. >>>And kaboodle is not just a movie player. >> >>"No media/file opened."? :) > > Doesn't that just state the obvious though? Ofcourse. But how are users to understand the empty space at the bottom of the window is a statusbar? Any application that I'm aware of has a default string displayed such as the above when action has yet to be taken. xmms, mplayer, totem, konqueror, kget, mozilla, kmail.... >>It really belongs in the status bar then, in a nice small font ;) It's >>bad to be large the moment it starts looks awkward where as a smaller >>font can do no harm and look more fitting. > > But if I use a small font, then I think the whole thing will look > unbalanced. The slider will overwhelm the time display. > Actually, I was thinking on bringing that up too :) I see the slider is also controlled by the used style. Simply size the slider to fit the width of the window and then it's up to the style to make it look right. As it is currently unpractical to modify the video toolbar could you place the 'hide menubar' to the far right of the toolbar? Far from ideal ofcourse, but it should be moved away from the navigational controls.
Subject: Re: usability: toolbar layout and buttons > >>>And the answer isn't to dynamically hide and remove GUI elements. > >>>Making it so that the user doesn't know what will be in the toolbar > >>>when just makes things harder on the user. > >> > >>You're right. I can agree with not removing the functionality. How > >> about moving it to the same toolbar as "Fullscreen" instead? This > >> would somewhat minimize accidential clickage.. > > > > Even if I saw a connection between the two, that wouldn't be possible. > > Erect a mental wall between Kaboodle and the Video Toolbar. The Video > > Toolbar is in its own world. Kaboodle is just embedding that widget. > > Sorry. > > If I understand correctly this is purely a technical limitation? We can > expect improvement in the future? It's a technical feature, really, so the first answer is yes.. The Video Widget acts independently. So if by "improvement" you mean Kaboodle reimplementing KVideoWidget instead of reusing it, the answer to your second question is no. > >>>And kaboodle is not just a movie player. > >> > >>"No media/file opened."? :) > > > > Doesn't that just state the obvious though? > > Ofcourse. But how are users to understand the empty space at the bottom > of the window is a statusbar? Any application that I'm aware of has a > default string displayed such as the above when action has yet to be > taken. xmms, mplayer, totem, konqueror, kget, mozilla, kmail.... It's up to the widget style to make the status bar's existance clear. Other apps like Konqueror don't display redundant clutter in the status bar. They only print a status when there is a status to print, like a file having been loaded. > >>It really belongs in the status bar then, in a nice small font ;) It's > >>bad to be large the moment it starts looks awkward where as a smaller > >>font can do no harm and look more fitting. > > > > But if I use a small font, then I think the whole thing will look > > unbalanced. The slider will overwhelm the time display. > > Actually, I was thinking on bringing that up too :) > I see the slider is also controlled by the used style. Simply size the > slider to fit the width of the window and then it's up to the style to > make it look right. I'm leaving the time next to the slider, because the time label and the slider widget are equivalent, linked representations. Until someone gets around to writing a complicated slider legend widget that will replace the timer label, the current layout is the best we can get. Moving the label to the statusbar leaves the slider sitting there alone, with no clue as to its function or meaning. People know what a time is, so people infer what the slider is sliding about. > As it is currently unpractical to modify the video toolbar could you > place the 'hide menubar' to the far right of the toolbar? Far from ideal > ofcourse, but it should be moved away from the navigational controls. Sure. Hey, see? Two requests done already, and I suspect a compromise with the slider widget/label combo is approaching. :-)
Subject: kdemultimedia/kaboodle CVS commit by neil: Reshuffle the toolbar a bit. CCMAIL: 53682@bugs.kde.org M +3 -2 kaboodleui.rc 1.7 --- kdemultimedia/kaboodle/kaboodleui.rc #1.6:1.7 @@ -1,4 +1,4 @@ <!DOCTYPE kpartgui> -<kpartgui name="kaboodle" version="8"> +<kpartgui name="kaboodle" version="9"> <MenuBar> <Menu name="edit"> @@ -8,9 +8,10 @@ </MenuBar> <Toolbar name="KaboodleToolbar"><text>Kaboodle Toolbar</text> - <Action name="file_quit"/> <Action name="file_open"/> <Action name="options_show_menubar"/> <Separator line="true"/> <Merge/> + <Separator line="true"/> + <Action name="file_quit"/> </Toolbar> </kpartgui>
Subject: Re: usability: toolbar layout and buttons Neil Stevens wrote: > ------- You are receiving this mail because: ------- > You reported the bug, or are watching the reporter. > > http://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=53682 > > ------- Additional Comments From neil@qualityassistant.com 2003-02-01 12:14 ------- > Subject: Re: usability: toolbar layout and buttons > >>>>>And kaboodle is not just a movie player. >>>> >>>>"No media/file opened."? :) >>> >>>Doesn't that just state the obvious though? >> >>Ofcourse. But how are users to understand the empty space at the bottom >>of the window is a statusbar? Any application that I'm aware of has a >>default string displayed such as the above when action has yet to be >>taken. xmms, mplayer, totem, konqueror, kget, mozilla, kmail.... > > It's up to the widget style to make the status bar's existance clear. > Other apps like Konqueror don't display redundant clutter in the status > bar. They only print a status when there is a status to print, like a > file having been loaded. When I open konqueror (something I never do, so i haven't altered the defaults :) I see in the statusbar: 0 Items - 0 Files - 0 Directories. A second later I see the correct results displayed. When opening the konqueror using the webbrowser profile we actually see no status bar at all. Fair enough. But there's a different here: there's nothing magically hovering right above the invisible statusbar so it doesn't draw the user's attention. >>As it is currently unpractical to modify the video toolbar could you >>place the 'hide menubar' to the far right of the toolbar? Far from ideal >> ofcourse, but it should be moved away from the navigational controls. > > Sure. Hey, see? Two requests done already, and I suspect a compromise > with the slider widget/label combo is approaching. :-) Sounds good :) One major concern still remains the quit button though. As I pointed out that even when the menubar is hidden, one can easily close kaboodle by conventional means (the X in the window/title-bar). For anyone not using the hide menubar feature it's a very destructive button and can easily be clicked on by mistake. If someone chooses to use an unconventional UI feature (hide menubar) then they wouldn't shun using unconventional means to close kaboodle (eventhough the close button on the titlebar cant really be called unconventional). - wvl
This bug should probably be closed. I think the usability of kaboodle (and noatun) should be discussed on kde-usability and after that we can create separate bugs for each issue.