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On Friday 26 July 2002 20:27 hughjonesd@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
> Many of Kmail's keyboard shortcuts consist of a single key with no
> modifier key (Ctrl or Alt).

And therefore using KMail is very easy because most functions are 
available via a single key press.

> When I start kmail then type into another window kmail can popup
> grab focus and I can accidentally do things in kmail without knowing
> what I have done This could even include deleting emails (with the
> 'D' keyboard shortcut).

Under which circumstances does KMail popup and grab focus? AFAIK the 
only case in which KMail popups up is when new mail arrives and you 
enabled being notified by a message box. If you don't like this please 
disable the notification by message box.

> I think that for usability it would be better if default keyboard
> shortcuts used the Ctrl modifier - except for keys like "home"
> "end" "pageup" "pagedown" "delete".

I'm against changing the default shortcuts as users who don't like them 
can change them easily. But I don't close your report because I would 
like to hear the opinion of another developer first.

Regards
Ingo

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On Friday 26 July 2002 20:27 hughjonesd@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
<snip>
> Many of Kmail's keyboard shortcuts consist of a single key with no
> modifier key (Ctrl or Alt).
<snip>

Have you tried Settings->Configure Shortcuts? ;-)

Marc

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On Friday 26 July 2002 1:12 Ingo Klöcker wrote:
> On Friday 26 July 2002 20:27 hughjonesd@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
> > Many of Kmail's keyboard shortcuts consist of a single key with no
> > modifier key (Ctrl or Alt)
[snip]
> > I think that for usability it would be better if default keyboard
> > shortcuts used the Ctrl modifier - except for keys like "home"
> > "end" "pageup" "pagedown" "delete".
>
> I'm against changing the default shortcuts as users who don't like them
> can change them easily. But I don't close your report because I would
> like to hear the opinion of another developer first.

IMO this is a violation of the style guide and a dangerous inconsistency. 
KMail like all other KDE applications should use Ctrl-<key> combinations by 
default. The current bindings should be an advanced option.

Other opinions?

-John

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On Friday 26 July 2002 06:54 John Firebaugh wrote:
> On Friday 26 July 2002 1:12 Ingo Klöcker wrote:
> > On Friday 26 July 2002 20:27 hughjonesd@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
> > > Many of Kmail's keyboard shortcuts consist of a single key with no
> > > modifier key (Ctrl or Alt)
>
> [snip]
>
> > > I think that for usability it would be better if default keyboard
> > > shortcuts used the Ctrl modifier - except for keys like "home"
> > > "end" "pageup" "pagedown" "delete".
> >
> > I'm against changing the default shortcuts as users who don't like them
> > can change them easily. But I don't close your report because I would
> > like to hear the opinion of another developer first.
>
> IMO this is a violation of the style guide and a dangerous inconsistency.
> KMail like all other KDE applications should use Ctrl-<key> combinations
> by default. The current bindings should be an advanced option.

i'm not sure exactly which part of the style guide that says accels need to 
have modifiers (did i miss it?) but there are standard shortcuts that don't 
have an associated modifier. one may say they are special since none of them 
are alphanumeric (e.g. F3 for find again or Page Up) but this is obviously 
due to the fact that the alphanumeric keys must be left alone for situations 
where the user is entering data. so all generic actions require modifier 
keys.

in kmail the key shortcuts are never in conflict with an editing situation so 
that's a moot point. moreover managing email is a fairly repetative task 
that entails often performing the same task (i.e. next message) over and over 
again in quick succession all while in a view-only mode. email lends itself 
very well to a single-key modifier system. kmail often gets praised for a UI 
that "stays out of the way of the user". these single key modifiers are 
probably part of the reason for that.

granted kmail is fairly unique in this way though not alone: kscd and kcalc 
both use modifier-less accels. again this is because it makes sense for the 
task at hand.

as ingo pointed out the accels can be changed from these defaults so it 
isn't a no-win situation for those who don't like them. and waldo is also 
right in that this is a window manager issue more than a kmail issue (one 
that kwin suffered from for ages i might add ... thanks to those fixed it!!)

i think the fact that the bug reporter speaks in hypotheticals is telling. i 
wager we'd be hearing about it pretty regularly if people were accidently 
deleting emails due to the accels.

- -- 
Aaron J. Seigo
GPG Fingerprint: 8B8B 2209 0C6F 7C47 B1EA  EE75 D6B7 2EB1 A7F1 DB43

"Everything should be made as simple as possible but not simpler"
    - Albert Einstein
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On Saturday 27 July 2002 3:00 am Aaron J. Seigo wrote:
> On Friday 26 July 2002 06:54 John Firebaugh wrote:
> > On Friday 26 July 2002 1:12 Ingo Klöcker wrote:
> i think the fact that the bug reporter speaks in hypotheticals is telling.
> i wager we'd be hearing about it pretty regularly if people were accidently
> deleting emails due to the accels.

Although I spoke in hypotheticals it has happened to me. I have been editing 
text in a window while waiting for KMail to load. I hit "d" at the wrong time 
- - just after KMail loaded and grabbed focus - and deleted an email. Luckily I 
noticed but of course maybe at other times I've done stuff without noticing.

I like KMail's shortcuts but I don't think having two-handed shortcuts rather 
than one-handed ones is a big loss - most people are used to them after all.
- -- 
David Hugh-Jones
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On Sunday 28 July 2002 12:57 David Hugh-Jones wrote:
> On Saturday 27 July 2002 3:00 am Aaron J. Seigo wrote:
> > On Friday 26 July 2002 06:54 John Firebaugh wrote:
> > > On Friday 26 July 2002 1:12 Ingo Klöcker wrote:
> >
> > i think the fact that the bug reporter speaks in hypotheticals is
> > telling. i wager we'd be hearing about it pretty regularly if
> > people were accidently deleting emails due to the accels.
>
> Although I spoke in hypotheticals it has happened to me. I have been
> editing text in a window while waiting for KMail to load. I hit "d"
> at the wrong time - just after KMail loaded and grabbed focus - and
> deleted an email. Luckily I noticed but of course maybe at other
> times I've done stuff without noticing.

You snipped the following of Aaron's reply:
> > and waldo is also right in that this is a window manager issue more
> > than a kmail issue (one that kwin suffered from for ages i might
> > add ... thanks to those fixed it!!)

This fix takes care of what happened to you. An application doesn't 
automatically get the focus anymore after it's loaded. Therefore the 
situation you describe above can't happen anymore which IMO means this 
discussion is pretty pointless.

> I like KMail's shortcuts but I don't think having two-handed
> shortcuts rather than one-handed ones is a big loss - most people are
> used to them after all.

Nobody and nothing hinders them from changing the shortcuts.

Regards
Ingo

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i like one-press shortcuts
but they don't work when i switch to russian keyboard layout (using xf86config-4).

Could it be resolved?