On Thursday 01 November 2001 02:53 pm tbutler@uninetsolutions.com wrote:
> On to my wish list item. I was thinking it would be really great if Noatun
> allowed it's play list to be skinned too. For instance many K-Jofol skins
> (and also WinAmp ones if Noatun's Winskin if that makes it into release)
> have "docked" playlists that generally use the same look as the main part
> of the skin. It occurs to me that Noatun would look and work even better if
> it could support this feature.

KJofol playlist skins are *awful* I mean that they're barely implemented 
very unusable.  

And winamp skins are unusable by definition :).  In any case it's unlikely 
that we'll have a winamp playlist just because nobody wants to implement it 
especially myself.

-Charles

Hi Charles
  
> KJofol playlist skins are *awful* I mean that they're barely implemented
> very unusable.

  Is there any type of skin format that will be in Noatun2 that might support 
skinned playlists? I'm not usually an eye candy kind of person but I like my 
media player well skinned. ;-)
  If nothing else what about just giving Noatun it's very own native skin 
format? I would definately look into making skins for such a format...

> And winamp skins are unusable by definition :).  In any case it's unlikely

  Yeah yeah I know you're not a fan of WinAmp skins. Admittedly the other 
types *are* nicer looking although you have to admit the variety of skins 
available is nice...

  Keep up the great work!

   -Tim

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On Thursday 01 November 2001 04:26 pm Timothy R.Butler wrote:
> Hi Charles
>
> > KJofol playlist skins are *awful* I mean that they're barely
> > implemented very unusable.
>
>   Is there any type of skin format that will be in Noatun2 that might
> support skinned playlists? I'm not usually an eye candy kind of person but
> I like my media player well skinned. ;-)
>   If nothing else what about just giving Noatun it's very own native skin
> format? I would definately look into making skins for such a format...

I've considered writing a ultra-sexy GUI for it (that is one that doesn't 
support skins but itself has lots of animations and pixmaps and shiny 
squeaky things to keep your kids amused :)

But you see I'm an awful awful _AWFUL_ artist.. and nobody wants to draw 
this for me so it will never get done.

I guess what I mean to say is that if you want a feature help implement it :)

>
> > And winamp skins are unusable by definition :).  In any case it's
> > unlikely
>
>   Yeah yeah I know you're not a fan of WinAmp skins. Admittedly the other
> types *are* nicer looking although you have to admit the variety of skins
> available is nice...

Yes well noatun was designed with that in mind.

>
>   Keep up the great work!

Thanks :)


-Charles

> But you see I'm an awful awful _AWFUL_ artist.. and nobody wants to draw
> this for me so it will never get done.
>
> I guess what I mean to say is that if you want a feature help implement it
> :)

  Well if it's graphics you need please give me some details and perhaps I 
could be of assitance. I am not a C++ programmer so I can't do the backend 
stuff (unless you want it implemented in Perl ;-) but I do like graphics 
work...

  Best
     Tim

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On Thursday November 01 2001 02:53 tbutler@uninetsolutions.com wrote:
> Before I say anything else let me just say that I am extremely
> impressed with the way Noatun is maturing!

great.

> On to my wish list item. I was thinking it would be really great if
> Noatun allowed it's play list to be skinned too. For instance many
> K-Jofol skins (and also WinAmp ones if Noatun's Winskin if that makes it
> into release) have "docked" playlists that generally use the same look
> as the main part of the skin. It occurs to me that Noatun would look and
> work even better if it could support this feature.

Tron won't ever have this behavior.  Luckily for you Tron's design is 
such that another playlist UI could be written based on it because the 
playlist logic and UI are in two separate classes.

There is already one proposed Tron fork I've heard of.. two or three more 
skin loading forks couldn't hurt.

....I just have to get Tron working again....

-- 
Neil Stevens
neil@qualityassistant.com

Don't think of a bug as a problem.  Think of it as a call to action.

Thank you for your bug report/feature request.
Unfortunately this bug will never be fixed or the feature never
implemented. The bug report/feature request will be closed.

I find it very unfortunate that this bug has been closed.  
 
Following the discussion at the Dot http://dot.kde.org/1051820688, I have the impression that the 
reasons why so many people are unhappy with Noatun/Arts are threefold: 
 
(1) Interface (playlist functionality, playlist skinning, application layout) 
(2) Stability (Interface of Noatun and/or Arts) 
(3) CPU consumption (and threfore skipping of songs under heavy load) 
 
In this post, I only focus on point (1) and specificly on skinning. Unfortunately, I don't like Noatuns 
default layout and am using skins therefore. However, if only the main application is skinned and the 
playlist/equalizer not, it gives the impression that there are three independent applications.  
Furthermore, the playlist and the equalizer cannot be docked, so if you would like to move around 
the Noatun and make space for another application, you have to move three windows (Noatun, the 
playlist and maybe the equalizer)! 
 
As I said before, I think that Winamps/XMMS's interface approach is not perfect, however, good 
enough. That I am not alone with this opinion you can see in this online poll:  
http://www.debianplanet.org/node.php?id=943&pollresults[943]=1 
 
Favourite Linux music players (04-05-03): 
 
XMMS: 82% (661 votes) 
ogg123: 5% (41 votes) 
mpg123: 5% (37 votes) 
(net)Rhythmbox: 4% (36 votes) 
Noatun: 3% (25 votes) 
JuK: 1% (6 votes) 
 
Now I understand that the authors of Noatun don't like Winamp/K-Jofol's skins and/or playlists. 
However, Noatun is the central Media application of KDE and so I guess there should be a player 
that a lot of people can use and like. 
 
See it also like this, if you allow for improved playlists and skinning, there will be not many people 
left critizing your work and comparing it to Winamp/XMMS/K-Jofol, as it will look and feel (if these 
skins are activated) the same. Just for your peace of mind! :-) 
 
Anyway, I like Noatun and Arts and am deeply impressed by the work you guys are doing! 
Beat 

Note that KDE has a unified UI design. The "skin" logic doesn't generally fit in with this 
idea so we don't dupe what we already have: STYLES 
 
I would mark it invalid if I'd noticed. 
 

If you want to use software that wins popularity contests, go use Microsoft Windows. 

Subject: Re:  Noatun Playlist Skinning and Integration

On Saturday 03 May 2003 4:10, Beat Fasel wrote:
> Following the discussion at the Dot http://dot.kde.org/1051820688, I have
> the impression that the reasons why so many people are unhappy with
> Noatun/Arts are threefold: 
> (1) Interface (playlist functionality, playlist skinning, application
> layout)
If they don't like it, they're free to write a plugin that does appeal to 
their <b>opinions</b>.

> (2) Stability (Interface of Noatun and/or Arts)
I know of exactly one way to crash noatun, and it's fully because of a 
KDialogBase bug.  This might have been fixed.


> (3) CPU consumption (and threfore skipping of songs under heavy load)
This has absolutely nothing to do with CPU usage.  Just the IDE drivers having 
too much latency, and mpeglib not buffering input enough.  Linux 2.4.20 seems 
to behave much better. SCSI on almost any kernel will behave much better (in 
fact, nearly impossible to skip).

I'm not the author of mpeglib, so bug someone else.

>  
> In this post, I only focus on point (1) and specificly on skinning.
> Unfortunately, I don't like Noatuns default layout and am using skins
> therefore. However, if only the main application is skinned and the
> playlist/equalizer not, it gives the impression that there are three
> independent applications. Furthermore, the playlist and the equalizer
> cannot be docked, so if you would like to move around the Noatun and make
> space for another application, you have to move three windows (Noatun, the
> playlist and maybe the equalizer)!

Well, I've been considering a solution to this problem, as stated on the KDE 
3.2 feature list.  Plugins should "register" their windows, under specific 
roles.

Noatun (or a plugin, even) could so something clever like move one window when 
another moves (emulating XMMS's approach).  You could creating an iTunes-like 
interface and have one plugin envelope other plugins (i.e., playlists and 
visualizations).

I don't entirely think of Noatun as a media player, I more like to think of it 
as a media player toolkit.  Anyone is free to anything they want in terms of 
plugins.

>  
> As I said before, I think that Winamps/XMMS's interface approach is not
> perfect, however, good enough. That I am not alone with this opinion you
> can see in this online poll:
> http://www.debianplanet.org/node.php?id=943&pollresults[943]=1
I'm not trying to win popularity contests, if I were, I'd be duplicating 
Windows Media Player's sorry excuse for a UI.

What I'm trying to do is make myself happy with a good media player, and 
anyone else is free to bask in Noatun's warmth.


>  
> Favourite Linux music players (04-05-03):
>  
> XMMS: 82% (661 votes)
> ogg123: 5% (41 votes)
> mpg123: 5% (37 votes)
> (net)Rhythmbox: 4% (36 votes)
> Noatun: 3% (25 votes)
> JuK: 1% (6 votes)

Windows: 92%
MacOS: 5%
KDE: 2%

Which is the best desktop?

Intel: 90%
PPC: 5%
Sparc: 2%
Alpha: 1%

Which is the best CPU?

The fact is that even popularity contests aren't accurate.  People dislike 
change, and I can imagine that a good chunk of Noatun users are those who 
have never liked XMMS or Winamp (like myself).


> 
> Now I understand that the authors of Noatun don't like Winamp/K-Jofol's
> skins and/or playlists. However, Noatun is the central Media application of
> KDE and so I guess there should be a player that a lot of people can use
> and like.
You're right, Noatun should be something lots of people could enjoy.  That's 
why I'm heeding popular demand and considering the "Widget registry" system 
I've outlined above.  That's also why I've been working on a new playlist 
(no, it won't be skinable).  That's why I even wrote Equalizer support, a 
feature I rarely use.

But I'm not going to change what I feel is a very well done design, or force 
"skin cancer" upon my users in the name of popularity.

>  
> See it also like this, if you allow for improved playlists and skinning,
> there will be not many people left critizing your work and comparing it to
> Winamp/XMMS/K-Jofol, as it will look and feel (if these skins are
> activated) the same. Just for your peace of mind! :-)

A playlist plugin can do whatever it wants in terms of UI.  If you want to 
fork my playlist and make it skinable according to the XMMS skin format, you 
are free to.  Maybe it'd even end up in the KDE cvs repository!

>  
> Anyway, I like Noatun and Arts and am deeply impressed by the work you guys
> are doing! Beat

Well, I do appreciate this, but it's important that I'm not doing this program 
because I'm trying to win a popularity contest.  I'm not trying to get users, 
and that's why Noatun has so little similarity to any other media player.

You're going to have a hard time convincing me, as I'm happy enough just 
having a media player for myself.

- -Charles

For what its worth, a year and a half after my original report, I think I've 
realized what I *really* want. It isn't to have better skinning support, but 
simply to have one window for my playlist and basic play controls (perhaps 
one of Charles's ideas would implement this by making two windows act 
like one).  
 
  -Tim 

Subject: Centralization

Hayes has a player toolbar, effectively putting everything in one place.

Any other playlist could do the same thing.

Thanks Neil. I'll have to compile that and give it a try. 

Just as an additional sidenote why there is no KJ

Subject: Re:  Noatun Playlist Skinning and Integration

Moin,

On Sunday May 4 2003 02:51, Charles Samuels wrote:
> > (3) CPU consumption (and threfore skipping of songs under heavy load)
>
> This has absolutely nothing to do with CPU usage.  Just the IDE drivers
> having too much latency, and mpeglib not buffering input enough.  Linux

Any idea where the buffering takes place so I can alter it? cvs up kdebase 
kills my sound regularly if the file comes from the same hdd :)
> 2.4.20 seems to behave much better. SCSI on almost any kernel will behave
> much better (in fact, nearly impossible to skip).

Everybody vote for cheaper SCSI disks!

> I'm not the author of mpeglib, so bug someone else.

Wrong attitude, better immediately CC the ones who ARE its authors (I have no 
clue about mpeglib either).

> > In this post, I only focus on point (1) and specificly on skinning.
> > Unfortunately, I don't like Noatuns default layout and am using skins
> > therefore. However, if only the main application is skinned and the

What do you mean by default layout? Is there no GUI for Noatun with normal KDE 
UI that appeals you? If not, tell me why, I'm always willing to improve such 
things as that's one of the things I'm actually capable of (I couldn't 
improve a single thing about arts-related stuff though) ;)

> > playlist/equalizer not, it gives the impression that there are three
> > independent applications. Furthermore, the playlist and the equalizer

Why three? Main window + Playlist window = 2.

> > cannot be docked, so if you would like to move around the Noatun and make

KJ

Tim wrote: 
> For what its worth, a year and a half after my original report, I think I've  
> realized what I *really* want. It isn't to have better skinning support, but  
> simply to have one window for my playlist and basic play controls (perhaps  
> one of Charles's ideas would implement this by making two windows act  
> like one).  
Wow, Tim, you are right, that's actually what I would like to use too. Currently I'm using XMMS 
because it comes close to this, but heck, why not, I would probably also like a KDE look-and-feel 
player, provided it has a compact integrated window for the playlist and the play controls. 
 
Charles wrote that the main reason for the current popularity of XMMS is that people dislike change. 
I absolutely agree with that. But there is more to it, namely the integrated interface (playlist + 
controls) that is lacking currently. 
 
Beat 
 
Thanks! 
Beat 
  
 

Subject: Re:  Noatun Playlist Skinning and Integration

Moin,

On Sunday May 4 2003 17:34, Beat Fasel wrote:
> Charles wrote that the main reason for the current popularity of XMMS is
> that people dislike change. I absolutely agree with that. But there is more
> to it, namely the integrated interface (playlist + controls) that is
> lacking currently.

Just added support for this to FlexPlaylist today (i.e. this is unreleased), 
now I can have PlayPause, Back, Stop and Forward in menubar, toolbar and even 
statusbar (although the last one is not adhering kde-styleguides, I still 
like it to save space and turn the toolbar+menubar off).
Next for me is to make all the keyboard shortcuts configurable, then I can 
hopefully make a new release :)

Bye, Stefan aka mETz

Stefan wrote: 
> > > In this post, I only focus on point (1) and specificly on skinning.  
> > > Unfortunately, I don't like Noatuns default layout and am using skins  
> > > therefore. However, if only the main application is skinned and the  
>  
> What do you mean by default layout? Is there no GUI for Noatun with normal KDE  
> UI that appeals you? If not, tell me why, I'm always willing to improve such  
> things as that's one of the things I'm actually capable of (I couldn't  
> improve a single thing about arts-related stuff though) ;) 
:-)  
Well, that's difficult to describe what you like and what you dont' like and why. I try anyway. Well, 
apart from the lacking integration (or coupled noatun,playlist and equalizer windows) it's also 
compactness I like (playlist and play controls tied close together, so that one can see that they 
belong to the same app). 
But as you say, Noatun currently feels cobbled-together, having seemingly unrelated windows 
belonging to the same app. This is especilly true, if you have e.g. noatun skinned and a playlist and 
huge equalizer window around that seem like belonging more to a nearby open krwite due to having 
the kde-look and feel, while the skined notatun skined looks like something else. Even if noatun is 
used with a native kde plugin, it is not immediately visually apparent if the playlist belongs to Noatun 
and not to kwrite. 
 
Ok, back to the native interface plugins of Noatun, Stefan, you asked me why they are not so 
appealing to me: 
 
- Exellent: Emptiness (empty window with a slider in it when you start it up). I don't like how the 
reminding playing time, the name of the song and the total playing time are presented to the user. 
They are distributed unequally over the window, leading to wasted real-estate. Also, I don't like the 
play controls organized in a toolbar. Hereby, the  play controls get situated very close to the window 
closing button as well as the file opening button. I feel that the play controls should be more 
grouped together on their own as they are functionally similar, while the file opening and application 
closing button do something different. 
 
- Milk-Chocolate: Cute, but what are the two sliders for? Which is volume and which is the progress 
slider? Not immediatly clear. For the sake of compactness, labeling of the sliders has been sacrified... 
 
Beat 
 
PS: I agree with all of you, M$ Mediaplayer is one huge boatware, something that hurts in the eyes 
and consumes the whole desktop. 
 
  
  

Ah yes, Stefan, another reasons why I don't like so much the default skins of Noatun: The missing 
integrated (not the external as is already possible) visualization mode like available in XMMS and 
K-Joffol or with the XMMS/K-Jofol skins with Noatun.  
I like to see the music instantly in action. This visual feedback let's me experience the music much 
more strongly than without. Well, I know this sounds funny, but it's true for me. :-) 
 
Beat 
 
PS: You might say that it is disturbing if one has Noatun playing with visual feedback and wants to 
concentrate on work in another application. I agree, however, one can always temporally deactive 
visualization, at least with the Winamp/K-Jofol skins. 

Subject: Re:  Noatun Playlist Skinning and Integration

On Sunday 04 May 2003 10:13, Beat Fasel wrote:
> Ah yes, Stefan, another reasons why I don't like so much the default skins
> of Noatun: The missing integrated (not the external as is already possible)
> visualization mode like available in XMMS and K-Joffol or with the
> XMMS/K-Jofol skins with Noatun.
> I like to see the music instantly in action. This visual feedback let's me
> experience the music much more strongly than without. Well, I know this
> sounds funny, but it's true for me. :-)

A person can write a UI plugin in a weekend.  You could even modify an 
existant plugin and have this done in a couple of hours.

- -Charles

> A person can write a UI plugin in a weekend. You could even modify an  
> existant plugin and have this done in a couple of hours.  
Well, for me it would take probably longer, as I am not knowlegeable enough I guess. But you are 
right Charles, open source is all about participation and not just asking for features, others should 
provide.  Unfortunately, currently I don't have so much time at disposition. However, once I'm 
finished with my current work I might have a look at it. 
 
Cheers, 
Beat 

Subject: Re:  Noatun Playlist Skinning and Integration

On Sunday 04 May 2003 04:11, Neil Stevens wrote:

> Hayes has a player toolbar, effectively putting everything in one place.

Speaking of which, I'd like it to have a slider to scroll in the song -- 
that's the only thing I need to left-click the systray icon currently :-/

Cheers
Carsten Pfeiffer
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