Version: (using KDE 4.0.82) Installed from: Ubuntu Packages Currently two icons are used, which is bad, because it is not consistent. The icons of logout and shutdown are RE-used which is bad, because they already have meaning. Icon suggestion: opened door with arrow? Anyway, do not reuse icon, because users will be confused what function means what.
could you post a screenshot? thanks.
yes, please do. or at least explain where you are seeing these icons. i'm not sure where you are looking; everywhere i'm looking the icons are different, so i must be looking in the wrong place.
Created attachment 25332 [details] leave1
Created attachment 25333 [details] leave2
Do you now believe me? ;-)) Third place -- desktop context menu.
thank you; i'll fix this right now. and yes, i believed you. i just didn't know where you had found it. please realize that every bug report you file here results in one of us spending time reading it, testing it, etc. if you can be precise and specific about things it will save us a lot of time and aggravation trying to fix issues you find. if you were reporting one issue a week i wouldn't really care. but you are doing a dozen or two a *day* right now. which is cool: we need Q/A attention paid to things. but by being this active you are effectively becoming part of our team; as such, please consider your teammates ;) specifics == godlike.
My fault! It is consistent in kickoff and from the desktop menu. I forgot the traditional menu applet. Maciej just be as precise as possible in your reports. Your comment #5 is just useless. What do you mean by "Third place -- desktop context menu." This is not informative, nor is the "Do you now believe me?" comment.
Aaron, I will try to help at my best I promise, when I miss something it is not that I am evil, but simply because I am human, and I am list of other reports in my mind (and because I have RSI, that's why a11y is so big issue for me, as you know). Anne, third place -- the third place this icon (leave) is used. Anne, I just hope you are not going to exchange the logout icon to shutdown icon to make it only consistent. As I said before -- it should be distinct too (look at the kickoff ss). And there you have context. In context menu you don't have it.
SVN commit 820460 by aseigo: consistency is next to goddessness. BUG:164037 M +1 -1 simpleapplet.cpp WebSVN link: http://websvn.kde.org/?view=rev&revision=820460
Still the leave icon is used the same as for shutdown. Please use the leave icon -- big red icon with white "x" cross. It is used in all KDE apps. Since consistency is next to goddessness... :-)
Created attachment 25366 [details] icons Using "application-exit" instead "system-shutdown"? Probably it has been choosed to use "system-shutdown" because it is a common graphic used to shutdown electrical devices (you find it on TV, household appliances...) I don't know. P.S: Artist will not like this idea, he he he :-p
Yes, but it was used before. UI principle (should be used in KDE). One widget -> one meaning. One meaning -> one widget. Leave/shutdown violates that principle (one icon -> many meanings). With leave icon (app leave/former KDE leave) it is ok -- this only means that you are about to leave. Then options are presented: * save the changes * logout * are you sure * etc.
Maciej, are you subscribed to panel-devel mailing list? I brought this icon problem to the list and I changed the icon in kickoff so it matches desktop. Not sure now what the issue is but if you could help tackling problems upstream it would be less time demanding for us.
> Maciej, are you subscribed to panel-devel mailing list? No. > I changed the icon in kickoff so it matches desktop I am not sure what it means, matches desktop. I repeat -- one icon per one action. No icon hijacking (this applies in general to UI, not to this case only). In today KDE4Daily the icon for shutdown is reused as icon for leave. And I use KDE4Daily and I update daily so I am pretty up-to-date, if this what you meant. I am trying not to bring old (fixed) problems to bugzilla.
Just to avoid opening another very similar report -- lock/logout still uses incorrect icon for leave.
I think the same icon is used everywhere. Please be more specific, thanks!
Created attachment 25538 [details] ss Sorry, forgot about word "plasmoid" :-(
PS. Same, yes, distinct = nope. For plasmoid it is worse actually because you add plasmoid named "lock/LOGOUT" you see images "lock/SHUTDOWN" the action performed is "lock/LEAVE".
Do you mean: in Lock/Logout plasmoid, the Logout icon is currently "system-shutdown.png" while it should be "system-log-out.png" Please check if the above is OK (you can find the icons in your install dir in $KDEDIRS/share/icons/oxygen/48x48/actions) and next time you report icon problems, name the icons by their names so we understand you correctly and so we do not need 19 comments in a bug report to fix such things!
> Do you mean: in Lock/Logout plasmoid, the Logout icon is > currently "system-shutdown.png" while it should be "system-log-out.png" No, in all places for leave icon (application-exit *) the shutdown icon (system-shutdown) is used instead leave icon (see #11). Now I simply spotted another place where it used and there it is even more ambiguous than in others, because 2 symbols are used, and none of them is correct. Lock/logout should be named lock/leave and should use proper (leave) icon, as the rest of KDE. So user does not have to guess what will happen next. (*) it does not have to be _this_ icon, it could be something different, if this would distinct from other tasks icons
Created attachment 25544 [details] It should be enough This screenshot explain all the logout-related problems.
Created attachment 25545 [details] my "explanations" The question is what should be the icon for the leave? In my opinion it cannot be reused as shutdown or logout. Application exit is a good one (or another, completely new) because you actually exit app --> KDE. If lock/logout plasmoid will be changed to provide various functions (reported) this would be a must -- because user could put leave and shutdown on panel, and they both (currently) share the same icon. ( Finex, thanks for the "explanation" template :-) ).
Yep, the icon which is actually used for shutdown is the same for leave, I didn't pointed it out on my previous explanation because I'm still thinking if that "big X cross" is a good solution. Probably is better than using the same icon of shutdown.
Anyway that icon (the "big X cross") is "application-exit". Using that icon is a contradiction. "application-exit" is different than "leave", where "leave" = "show all possible logout,lock,...,shutdown,... options" instead "application-exit" = "quit the current application" I suggest to : 1) follow the JPG on comment #21 for removing a lot of ambiguity 2) look for a better icon for the "leave" action (for the same reason)
ad.1) I just posted this another explanation, because you left some ambiguity in you jpg (look at the middle column, kickoff), the same icon is used for two different actions ad.2) just to clarify, I don't care that much what icons will be used, but they should be not ambiguous (i.e. do not use the same icon for two actions)
ok, so there's some confusion here. the icon is called "shutdown" but it's also what we use for the idea of "Leaving". so we're using that consistently everywhere. this isn't a random decision, it was the result of a fair amount of trial and discussion with various parties (artists, usability, dev). EOT.
@Aaron: did you read even this http://bugs.kde.org/attachment.cgi?id=25545&action=view ?
yes, i did. the issue is that we are using an icon that is consistent, that user's respond to properly, etc. the down arrow doesn't particularly work well here, and we're not really just talking about "logging out" but "show the logout dialog" i get what you're saying, but in this case you are wrong, thanks for taking the time and effort to explain your thoughts thoroughly.
> i get what you're saying, but in this case you are wrong, thanks for taking > the time and effort to explain your thoughts thoroughly. Am I wrong even when an user disable the logout confirmation?
ad.#29) Finex, this is separate issue, because those icons look like hardcoded no matter what you choose, opening report for it ad.#26) KDE4 Target Users " Berna (...) is very unsure when it comes to technology. Berna is a very precise person, and (...) twice lost several hours of work because she didn't understand the options she was offered. " And this is not surprise (and not her fault), because all Berna sees is ambiguous icon (lock/logout plasmoid). This icon could mean shutdown, or it can mean leave (or in reality it could even mean something else, because Berna cannot assume system is totally bug-free). UI principles were not make up yesterday and those are effects of years of observations human-machine interaction. Aaron, I understand what you said that you made decision to deliberately violate them. The cost is clear, what are the benefits? =========================================================== [ sub-wish, maybe at least let's double system-shutdown icon to system-shutdown and system-leave, change the code to use system-leave for leave, visually it won't change a thing, but for Berna-admins :-) it would require only to change some icons without messing with code ? ]