Version: (using KDE 4.0.82) Installed from: Ubuntu Packages This is very old problem, unfortunately still present in KDE4. The active tab is not marked enough. Please improve this -- people with some vision impairment, or older, have real difficulties to tell which tab is active. Thank you a lot in advance (and my parents thank too :-) ).
KDE cannot do anything for Cleanlook, report to Trolltech for it.
Sorry, but I think it is very clear. Are you sure you are even using oxygen, and could you please provide a screenshot
ss in few seconds... Meanwhile: it would be also a big plus for handicapped people to have some way to configure it -- type of highlight, visual mark, such things.
Created attachment 25311 [details] example 1
Created attachment 25312 [details] example 2 It is far from distinct indication. In my case: it is just "strain" for my eyes. For older people (tested): they cannot tell the difference.
ah right you are using a dark colorscheme. I don't think we'll provide an option for it but bug accepted
No, it also "works" for other schemes, see example 2. Btw, non-color suggestions: a) small triangles, like >general< b) small triangle at the center, bottom, ^ (and above -- "general") this would be a tremendous help.
well personaly i think we KDE should provide a special theme for this types off problems, We will try to to make some adjustments in oxygen to help but im prety sure it will still be a rather poor anser.
Special theme would be great, because it would also a clear sign KDE takes accessibility issues very seriously. But as I said, I "only" wear glasses, so it is not a big (?) vision impairment, yet the tabs solution (current) is not very useful (I have to make a little extra effort each time, to focus my eyes on active tab). small triangles, solid (filled) with color the same as the text is... small, yet very effective. Could be optional of course.
*** Bug 165791 has been marked as a duplicate of this bug. ***
*** Bug 166082 has been marked as a duplicate of this bug. ***
Noticed this via bug 165791, it's pretty bad with e.g. WonTon Soup as well. Bad enough in fact that I'm promoting this to "normal" from "wishlist". Maybe we could/should adapt something like the 'change it until the contrast ratio is sufficient' method from the windeco for picking the inactive tab color? (In fact, let me know if that sounds like a good idea, maybe I'll get to it myself.) What about making the active tab text bold?
> What about making the active tab text bold? That sounds logical, as I believe that Firefox does that.
ad.#12) for me tab is similar (in concept) to titlebar, so customizable color for active and inactive tab would be great. If this is what you had in mind writing about contrast, then I agree (I mean manually customization, not automatic). With bold it goes even further, because I think KDE should allow to customize font for titlebar inactive and active (not just titlebar), and the same goes for tabs. The reason for this is that I personally like obvious indication and nice, but for some user (I admin their computers) I set super obvious indications no matter if they are ugly or not. Those users (mild vision impaired) must see clearly what KDE shows.
Actually, it might be a good idea to use the Active Titlebar colours and text configuration for active tabs, and the Inactive Titlebar colours and text configuration for inactive tabs. It would lead to UI consistency and ensure distinguishable tabs.
Yes, this would help a lot! So I opt for this. But of course if separate customization would be possible, it would be even better.
I can confirm that the issue is still present in KDE 4.2. See also this related bug: http://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=166082
*** Bug 182832 has been marked as a duplicate of this bug. ***
*** Bug 182694 has been marked as a duplicate of this bug. ***
I agree with Dotan Cohen's recommendation.
Created attachment 32102 [details] suggestion What do you think about this?
Oh, I forgot that we wanted to redo the tabs anyway...
(In reply to comment #21) > Created an attachment (id=32102) [details] > suggestion > > What do you think about this? I like that, much better than what we have now.
@Huynh Huu Long: I think that the glow is a great idea. That combined with the Active Titlebar colours and text configuration for active tabs (and the Inactive Titlebar colours and text configuration for inactive tabs) should solve this issue completely. Thanks!
Created attachment 32103 [details] variation of Huynh proposal Nice, it is a helper for sure, but note the indication is still subtle. Bold and little · dot or triangle pointing out the tab would be clear indication which tab is active. I changed your image a bit, I am not an artist, so don't panic :-).
Maciej, I don't really like the dot or triangle. I do not see what purpose it serves, and it is distracting.
Well, I suspected that, so I am all for options for such things -- I think providing theme A and theme A-with-triangle is overkill (explanation just in case). And about triangle -- you are probably young, but older people (>60), with not such good focus abilities have hard time to distinguish tabs just by colors. The explicit visual indicator is way more helpful. For _them_. So I hope there will be place for option for controlling how much visual indicator is needed. I doubt that one hardcoded solution would be useful for all users.
> And about triangle -- you are probably young, but older people (>60), with not > such good focus abilities have hard time to distinguish tabs just by colors. I am young, but my vision for things on the screen is terrible. I really have a hard time telling things apart on the screen, so I am a big usability and accessibility advocate. This is in start contrast to my visual abilities in the field, where I will spot a human figure from hundreds of meters away. > The explicit visual indicator is way more helpful. For _them_. I think that the blue glow as proposed by Huynh is adequate, in fact, it is more visually distinctive than the triangle. Maybe a triangle of a brighter colour would be more distinctive. > So I hope there will be place for option for controlling how much visual > indicator is needed. I doubt that one hardcoded solution would be useful for > all users. I agree, there needs to be different levels of visual accessibility. System Settings really should have a place to arrange for all these settings. There needs to be a push for accessibility in KDE 4.4 or 4.5.
Dotan, I am glad we are on the same side (as usual :-) ). One note about color -- color is great indicator, but not for everybody. Different people = different problems. So sometimes there is a need for additional object (shape) as indicator. As I said, no forcing anything, it should be an option.
> One note about color -- color is great > indicator, but not for everybody. That's a good point, and quite the reason that an accessibility team must be formed, with lots of different users. I did not even think about that.
Dont forget that oxygen hasn't got a great focus on accessibility (see low contrast etc.) and I think there should be a separate style, which does its task very good. I'm thinking of something like HighContrast but +prettiness...
But this would mean duplicating themes, wouldn't it? Sure, completely basic, simple theme is needed too, but for rest little helpers-options could add a great usability/accessibility value and broader audience would use them.
In Firefox there are extensions that allow certain things to happen to active/inactive tabs: bold, italics, colors (of course), hiding the close tab button (since Firefox has the close tab button on the tab by default) on inactives. I'm not saying all of these should be implemented, those are just some already-existing answers that have been tried in other software.
> That combined with the Active Titlebar colours and text configuration for active tabs Huh? The style should never, ever touch the WM palette. The color to use for glow would be active widget, though IMO this is broken unless the tab widget actually has input focus.
> The color to use for glow would be active widget, though > IMO this is broken unless the tab widget actually has input focus. As that colour has been designated to indicate the _active_ element, it should for consistency's sake be used for all active elements, including tabs. I actually think that Huynh's proposed solution is fine as is.
The color is named "focus" (my bad, shouldn't have said "active"), and it is for exactly that: "Color used to draw decorations for items which have input focus." Any other use of this color is wrong. I suppose you could use ActiveForeground though; however that is often pink, so the mockup would be misleading if you're trying to say that color should be used :-). (Please direct bikeshedding and other discussion that doesn't need to go in b.k.o to kde-usability-devel.)
Created attachment 32757 [details] hopefully improved tabs Yeah, Matthew is completely right, so did some other changes. I hope it's slightly better than before, even though contrast is still lacking.
Created attachment 32758 [details] hopefully improved tabs / dark color scheme
Regarding Comment #37, was the blue border on the upper tab not meant to be there? Also, at least for the upper and lower tabs, this proposal seems to be a good solution for bug # 166082 as well. Regarding Comment #38, the difference is too subtle, I cannot tell the difference between the active tab and the nonactive tab.
Dotan, thanks for pursuing this all along. Now that the KDE developers are fully cognizant of the bug, the question on my mind is when will a fix be made available? This bug is taking longer than it deservers.
heeeee ok long commit that, dont think its an elegant solution couse wen the tabs have difrent sizes the precived look is ugly... can you make sure they are more the same with.... ors at least have a set of avilable withs they can bee so we get visual coerency ?
I realy think that for this eet of problems a the proper fix is in a special theme that can be tewked alotin all difrent set of solutuions, having said that I dont mind some some helpers in oxygen that can be turned of or on. Like the arrow or difrent coloring.... Btw bold fonts are not more readable than normal ones usualy they have less contrast than normal ones. biguer font is one thing blod is another a bold font is not biguer in size just in with and that at the expence of proper AA hinting if you are uzing piguer than 12 px fonts then you will have an advantage... for smaler than 12 its usualy worst.... At the last meeting I atended i wen trugh every computer and chaged the defoults size fonts to a smaler font size and reduced the contrast (aka not black fonts just dark greey), in all of them and the result was for most people beter redability. remember that a one pixel with tarce is more readable than a 1.2 were anty alising kicks is to try to correct that problem and creates a bunch of new problems.
pinheiro, can you please proofread and repost your last post? My native language is not English, either, but I make a huge effort to use proper English syntax (spelling and grammar) to be understood. I cannot read your entire post and remember the beginning by the time I get to the end!
sorry about that
I committed the new tabs, please make some suggestion how to improve them further http://websvn.kde.org/?view=rev&revision=969240
Thank you pinheiro and Huynh Huu Long!
I didn't compile the code, but I saw this entry: http://pinheiro-kde.blogspot.com/2009/05/oxygen-is-back-to-work.html Does the screenshot put there reflects those changes from Huynh comment #45? If not, could someone please put the screenshot of the committed changes? Thank you in advance.
@Maciej: the screenshot shows the changes after the commit :-)
Thanks for the info. With all respect to work and new look it does not solve the problem with accessibility at all. Active and inactive tab looks virtually the same. In KDE3 the active tab at least is pulled out a bit, which is fine for me, but it does not help handicapped users. In this screenshot it is visible that the all tabs remain at the same level. So even "regular" users can have problems with it (I will). This whole report is about adding indication, I constantly opt for shape :-) In this example General < and _change_ of color or making contour with different color would help users to tell which one is active.
As I said the main focus of oxygen is not accessibility I realy wish some one would work on such a theme there is no fits all solution....
Rereading the thread, it seems that somehow bug 166082 is getting confused and crossposted with this bug (which I am partially responsible for). The commit is relevant to that bug, but there remains no clear distinction for the active tab. In comment #37 Huynh Huu Long proposed a titlebar-coloured halo around the active tab. I think that is a terrific solution and I would push to have it implemented. > main focus of oxygen is not accessibility Not having a focus on accessibility is understandable. Completely ignoring basic accessibility to the point where regular users find the application difficult to use is not acceptable under any circumstance.
Mr. Dotan Cohen please try to undrstand we do our best, as you can see from most coments on my blog people dont heven want the space betwin tabs, we try our best. To make every one happy but realy there is no fits all solution for every one.... please try to be polite wen stating arguments... we do this for fun wen its stops beeing fun we tend to stop wnating to do it.... if we had "Completely ignored basic accessibility to the point where regular users find the application difficult to use is not acceptable under any circumstance" we would not be heven here trying to make you happy and this bug would have benn long closed or forgoten....
Pinheiro, __This report__ is about making active tab more visible, in the ss provided I can see quite opposite -- the active tab is almost indistinguishable from the others. The spacing between tabs is irrelevant to this issue (and to this report). The current (?) state of oxygen as presented in the ss makes this unusable for regular folks (I am not counting people with eagle eyes), and it is fact no matter if this change was made in 5 minutes, or 5 days. And about good manners (of discussion) -- I cannot imagine more nicely written comment than previously by Dotan. I can imagine however using spell-checker as you were kindly to do so.
spell cheking, how do I set it up in konqueror??? I have it for portuguese... not english... active or not .... well I stated on the other bug that we might want the "active glow" on the active tab aswell. good manners... Im not a fan of taking orders or beeing told that we "Completely ignored basic accessibility" we do this for fun not as a joob, you know so... I have a thik skin after a few years of oss development but oxygen code developers are a realy scarse and must be protected, from the tipical I know beter speach specialy wen they are are just trying to help on the bug we have here... "you catch more flys with honney"
> spell cheking, how do I set it up in konqueror??? > I > have it for portuguese... not english... Good point for a wish report to switch this on fly. It depends on a language, I am Polish, but I work only in English, for such purposes. > active or not .... well I stated on the other bug that we might > want the "active glow" on the active tab aswell. I am glad to hear that. > good manners... Im not a fan of taking orders Nobody was giving orders. > or beeing told that > we "Completely ignored basic accessibility" we do this for fun not > as a joob, Well, you might not be a fan of listening to the users, but this if the fact. If you treat is as fun, the whole sentence reads "accessibility was ignored for fun" (__in current state__), there is no contradiction here. Everybody likes to hear compliments, but if you go public (and you do) don't expect people don't criticize. And here it is not just complaining, it is pointing out the flaws, very specifically. > oxygen code developers are a realy scarse and > must be protected, Well, what I learned in life that how much we treat poorer, or less fortunate is indicator of our humanity. If anyone needs protection are people who are handicapped, not developers, car drivers, or teachers. So for me, accessibility goes first, not second, or "well, later".
Im fine with critic, just that a "IMO" before the "truth" would be nice. wen "you" say "Completely ignored basic accessibility" you are saying alot of stuf, frist there is such a thing as "basic accessibility" wich is somthing with rather fusy meening, I meen what is "basic accessibility"? seams like a retorical minimum value for accessibility, and more you say that we completly ignored it wen we are here trying to fix it. So yeah one can be ofebded at lest i get ofended by somthing that can be read as "you dont care about what we are saying couse you dont know anything about it like I do" Judging by 95% of the comments in my blog are telling us to go the other way and make heven less distinction betwin inactive tabs... Wen I say "You" i was not talking directly at you it was just a figure of speach. About your last comment... bffff what can I say? do you code? I will be happy to help you in what hever way I can to make kde more accessible we realy need beter themes for that, and that adress those issues in beter ways... (btw you probaly dont know this but I have a deeply defecient syster and I hate special treatment I realy do) As far as oxygen goes im totaly ok with making options in it that make it more and more frindly to people with accessibility issues...
@pinheiro: I am sorry, I did not meant to be argumentative! I very much appreciate the work done on Oxygen, I have no grudge at all towards the Oxygen team, only gratitude! I think that the spell check in Konqueror in KDE 4 may be broken, at least I could not get it to work in my own language. But I am browsing in Firefox at the moment, which also has an English spellchecker. You wouldn't want to read my posts otherwise, they are worse that pinheiro's and even my rat walking across the keyboard would spell better than I!
Dotan Cohen I obviusly sufer from some conditon that forces me to use qt apps :) only :) realy... I need the oxygen style all over :) btw longh worked on new ways to fix this bug :)
Sooo. (me jumping in this long long thread with multiple back and forth). The current tabs look like attached. Since not everybody was happy with it style wise, the old tabs (from the beginning of the thread) are also still there on options - and have other problems). Now: I personally like the idea of using QPalette::color( QPalette::Inactive, QPalette::WindowText) (inactive text) for inactive tabs, and QPalette::color( QPalette::Active, QPalette::WindowText) for active tabs. (someone mentionned that at the beginning of the thread, but this was apparently lost in translation). This would have the advantages that: 1/ this does not break any kcm rule 2/ this is consistent with active/inactive windows of the windeco 3/ this would allow people to change the active/inactive differenciation at will, by playing with the color scheme, this whatever the design. And I'm pretty confident that this way everybody can find his best setting. The drawback I see: inactive tabs will be less readable (by design). But again, depending on users, one can play with the color scheme to fix this. What do you think ? (Nuno ? Dotan ? Others ?) (I will, at least for my own taste, give it a shot and will post screenshot soon).
Side note: konqueror actually does already enforce the active/inactive distinction for the "close tab" button. So that I think doing the same with the content would just make perfect sense.
Created attachment 37731 [details] tabs in kde 4.3 and trunk. Note active/inactive "close tab" buttons
Regarding comment #61: 1) Many users don't use the close tab buttons. 2) Look at that screenshot and blur (defocus) your eyes a bit. Can you still make out the active tab? I cannot.
Going to close this bug because I think we did the best we could about it, more than this is really an accessibility problem. That should be dealt with another theme.
I won't get into a bug war with you, pinheiro, but I think that you are making a mistake closing this bug. It might WORKSFORYOU but for many users it does not work.
Dotan Cohen the problem in this "catch my attention" issues is that there is no end in them there is allays some one that requires a bit more, as i told you if the problem is accessibility it might be something that you are right about, but its outside the scope of oxygen and requires a different theme for that. If it a style problem them some one must drew a line were it stops just because there will be alleyways some one asking for more, and many times in incoherent ways.. I'm sorry to do this maybe we can still help this a bit with the new animations but from my POV this is a closed bug as a "works for me".
You can sure define "oxygen is only for healthy people" but with such direction KDE looks frightening, because instead being more friendly, there are more and more places, where handicapped users are not welcome. Handicapped person won't see a difference here (I am referring to the screenshot), healthy person will but with strain of eyes. So it is question if deciphering active tab should be an aim (final) or aid? I would say -- aid, but it looks like more aim. So, two issues here: a) the difference in oxygen theme is still too much strain for eyes to work with comfortably b) little A18Y support in KDE, themes including And remark about close widget -- this of course should not be hardcoded, I hope it is not.
> the problem in this "catch my attention" issues is that there is no > end in them there is allays some one that requires a bit more I can understand that. You must draw the line somewhere. In my opinion you drew it too close, but there will always be someone with that opinion. > if the problem is accessibility it might be something that you are > right about, but its outside the scope of oxygen and requires a > different theme for that. I do agree that there should be an accessibility theme. Not like the exaggerated high-contrast theme, but something that is reasonable.
> You can sure define "oxygen is only for healthy people" but with such direction > KDE looks frightening, because instead being more friendly, there are more and > more places, where handicapped users are not welcome. I think this could be restated as saying that although "oxygen is only for healthy people", those healthy people are in fact being strained by using the current Oxygen theme. This is a statement that I agree with.
*** Bug 247066 has been marked as a duplicate of this bug. ***
>Resolution: WORKSFORME You must be joking...
> You must be joking... I agree with Tenno, the Oxygen website clearly states that Oxygen "supports usability and accesability" [1, look under "Goals"]. As the current tab distinction is in violation of that goal it is unintended behaviour, i.e. a bug. Reopening on that basis. [1] http://www.oxygen-icons.org/?page_id=2
Now THIS isn't funny. It has been closed once, by the maintainers, so don't go around reoopening again and again.
Only time will tell... I mean, we managed to fix bug 160627, too.
As stated by Casper, no joke there. Please read the numerous posts on this bug report. So far no solution has been proposed that would make both the bug reporters and the style designers + maintainers happy. To the point that this is not considered as a bug anymore. Many people use oxygen on a daily basis and many have no issue with distinguishing the active tab (notably because it is the only one physically attached to the page being displayed). Again, unless someone comes with a solution (a mockup) that makes everyone happy, this is resolved, as wontfix. (cause we, the maintainers, ran out of ideas).
@tenno: PS oxygen still maintains the 'old-style' tabs. This is the "plain" tabs style that you can select either by looking into oxygen configuration's dialog, or by typing 'oxygen-settings' in konsole or krunner. It has IMO more distinct layout between active and inactive tab, though (still IMO) it does not fit as well with the rest of oxygen. Maybe you can give it a shot, if not done already. Hugo
Debian does not seem to have oxygen-settings. Unending quest to find readable and nice style… oh well.
Ah, I maybe found what you meant. Does not seem to help much, but better that nothing I guess.