Bug 80330 - The correct name is F.Y.R.O.M not Macedonian
Summary: The correct name is F.Y.R.O.M not Macedonian
Status: RESOLVED NOT A BUG
Alias: None
Product: kcontrol
Classification: Miscellaneous
Component: kcmlocale (show other bugs)
Version: unspecified
Platform: Gentoo Packages Linux
: NOR wishlist with 546 votes (vote)
Target Milestone: ---
Assignee: George Staikos
URL:
Keywords:
Depends on:
Blocks:
 
Reported: 2004-04-25 19:54 UTC by Vasilis
Modified: 2004-05-18 17:10 UTC (History)
5 users (show)

See Also:
Latest Commit:
Version Fixed In:


Attachments

Note You need to log in before you can comment on or make changes to this bug.
Description Vasilis 2004-04-25 19:54:36 UTC
Version:            (using KDE KDE 3.2.1)
Installed from:    Gentoo Packages

I saw in the Country/Region & Language that under country you have Macedonian. This country does not exist with that name!!
The correct name is F.Y.R.O.M (Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia) according to the U.S. Department of State, http://www.state.gov/p/eur/ci/mk/ 

and there is no "short-form name for this country"

I would be really greatfull if you could change the name of this country, in every place that appears, to the correct one.

Thank you,
Vasilis
Comment 1 Deathwing00 2004-04-25 21:28:35 UTC
It is an offence to Greece and Makedonia from KDE to call that country that way. We urge you to change it immediately! The united nations support the Greek embargo on the region due to it's false name, so you must do the same.
Comment 2 Stephan Binner 2004-04-25 22:08:56 UTC
> The united nations support the Greek embargo on the region due to it's false name

Please post sources to prove this statement.

> so you must do the same.

Says who? AFAIK KDE's policy is to call countries as their inhabitant's call it (compare Taiwain).
Comment 3 E.Arkalis 2004-04-25 22:39:41 UTC
From U.N. official site (List of member sites):

"The former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia -- (8 Apr. 1993)"

"By resolution A/RES/47/225 of 8 April 1993, the General Assembly decided to admit as a Member of the United Nations the State being provisionally referred to for all purposes within the United Nations as "The former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia" pending settlement of the difference that had arisen over its name."


Comment 4 Vasilis 2004-04-25 22:52:03 UTC
I have one source:
http://www.state.gov/p/eur/ci/mk/

and one more, although this is not a source. In M$ you will have it as "FYRO Macedonia"

This is a map that I found in the web site of UN:
http://www.unece.org/trans/new_tir/seci/secimap/fyrommap.html

as you can see the name of this country is FYROM.

The inhabitants of this country may give any name they want to their country. This, however, does not mean that KDE should use this name.
Comment 5 Nicolas Goutte 2004-04-26 12:48:42 UTC
See a similar discussion on kde-www:
http://lists.kde.org/?t=107416894200001&r=1&w=2

(However, we had not to make a final decision, as we used here an external service.)

Have a nice day!
Comment 6 Waldo Bastian 2004-04-26 14:35:07 UTC
I will investigate the issue.
Comment 7 Stephan Kulow 2004-04-26 15:26:33 UTC
people living in "F.Y.R.O.M." call their country Macedonia - which are exactly the people supposed to find the country there.

This kcontrol module is for people selecting their country, not for greek people finding something to poke at.

And for web sources: http://www.macedonia.org/, http://www.gov.mk/English/

The UN may be there for countries to work together and there the oppinion of larger countries may count more than those of smaller countries, but for this
case the inhabitants count, nothing more.

Comment 8 Stephan Kulow 2004-04-26 15:37:35 UTC
ah, I found it: http://lists.kde.org/?t=96289427600008&r=1&w=2

Other greek people call people complaining about this topic "hardcore" nationalists, but I won't comment further on this.
Comment 9 Vasilis 2004-04-26 16:54:28 UTC
Do you know the meaning of the world propaganda. This is what the inhabitants of this country do.

"The UN may be there for countries to work together and there the oppinion of larger countries may count more than those of smaller countries, but for this 
 case the inhabitants count, nothing more. "

Do you have any idea what you are talking about? Be carefull and do not play with these things. KDE is a program for everybody and therefore KDE should conform with the international laws. If the UN declares that the name of this country is F.Y.R.O.M, who are you to say that is not. 

Comment 10 Vasilis 2004-04-26 17:08:05 UTC
Stephan,

a read many email that I found in your link. The conclusion is that this country should be called F.Y.R.O.M
Comment 11 Vasilis 2004-04-26 17:09:52 UTC
I want to reopen this bug/feature request...
Comment 12 E.Arkalis 2004-04-26 17:25:26 UTC
I think, that KDE must not be involved with political problems. All of us we want to offer some of our time in the project. We have to accept International standards . 
Personally I don't care how the "Makedonians" call themselfs, or what some "hardcore" Greeks saying (while Greek, I dont agree with them) or what smaller or bigger countries think. For KDE, it is not a political matter, neither a matter of personal view, is a matter of standards and conformity with International codes.
UN accepts nations with their official name, this name must be accepted by KDE. 
Here is not the place to talk about politics or history. 
Is not our job to say if UN is right or not
This is my view.
Comment 13 Vasilis 2004-04-26 17:33:48 UTC
I agree (not in all aspects) with you, Arkalis.
KDE should not be involved in politics
Comment 14 Stephan Kulow 2004-04-26 17:34:53 UTC
and who will look for Great Britain under
"United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland"?

Compare http://www.un.org/Overview/unmember.html - and read again the part of the country we're talking about. The General Assembly decided to refer to it as
F* - but KDE isn't part of the General UN Assembly
Comment 15 Stephan Binner 2004-04-26 17:36:54 UTC
> therefore KDE should conform with the international laws

Are you suggesting that KDE is offending international laws? When do you will learn that uttering wrong facts in a discussion (also see comment 1 "UN supports embargo") will not help to improve your position?
Comment 16 Vasilis 2004-04-26 17:45:52 UTC
Why am I "uttering wrong facts in a discussion"?

"The General Assembly decided to refer to it as 
 F* - but KDE isn't part of the General UN Assembly". 
To my humble opinions, this means that maps, documents etc related to this country should refer this country with the name F* and not something else. Again, I would like to remind you to visit http://www.state.gov/p/eur/ci/mk/
Comment 17 Niels 2004-04-26 18:02:47 UTC
Vasilis, you're not arguing from a rational and unbiased point of view. KDE calls a country as its inhabitants do. That's all -- read comment #7.
Comment 18 Vasilis 2004-04-26 18:36:13 UTC
Niels,
why my point of view is not rational? The fact that I am using as a validation of my statement and of my request, UN and Department of State of USA is not rational?
What you are arguing is not rational. Why KDE is calling a country as its inhabitants do? This is completely irrational!!
Is like saying to me that we do not care about the international laws, we are going to do what ever we like to, and screw all the legislators. 

I am not being a nationalists.
No one will complain, because simple what I am asking is not wrong.

Someone said that you are a bunch of volunteers. I agree, and I am an user, who happens to disagree with what you are doing. This is why I am kindly asking you to change it.
Comment 19 Niels 2004-04-26 19:31:43 UTC
>The fact that I am using as a validation of my
>statement and of my request, UN and Department
>of State of USA is not rational? 
But why did you choose those sources? KDE isn't an American project, nor is it under UN jurisdiction. If the Australian foreign office recommends "Macedonia" as a name, would you have quoted that?

If you can provide a recent UN recommendation of F* for general use, then you might have a case. There are other international agencies, what do they say?

>Why KDE is calling a country as its inhabitants do?
>This is completely irrational!!
Hmm, maybe, but that's apparently the choice for other troubled spots in the world. Making the same choice for M*/F* seems reasonable.

>Is like saying to me that we do not care about the international laws,
>we are going to do what ever we like to, and screw all the legislators.
What laws? The UN doesn't make laws, nor does the USA make laws outside their own country (even if they try). The UN _may_ be worth listening to in this matter, but certainly not the USA.

>Someone said that you are a bunch of volunteers.
>I agree, and I am an user, who happens to disagree
>with what you are doing. This is why I am kindly
>asking you to change it.
Fine, I'm also only a user.
But if you want to argue your point you have to present good facts, not just a couple of selected sources that happen to agree with your point. And you have to meet the counter arguments from Stephan et al.

My apologies if I offended you -- I realise I was a bit rude.
Comment 20 Vasilis 2004-04-26 20:16:13 UTC
How difficult is to understand that a certain name is given to this country. In all the papers (maps, documents, etc) you can refer to this country with that name. No other name is allowed. The inhabitants of this country want to claim a different name for their country, do you know what is written on their pasports?
I can claim what ever I want to, do I have the right to do so? 
You found a couple of web pages, which say that this country should be known as M*, did you try to search for F*. You will find a couple of other web pages that say that this country should be known as F*. 
The question is not what you and I thing is correct, but what is actually correct.

"nor is it under UN jurisdiction"
Really, do you leave in another planet? We are all under UN jurisdiction!

Which are the arguments of Stephan et al, that I have not met?
Comment 21 Niels 2004-04-26 20:29:56 UTC
>How difficult is to understand that a certain name is given to this country.
By who? KDE chooses the name used by the people living there.

>In all the papers (maps, documents, etc) you can refer to this country with
>that name. No other name is allowed. The inhabitants of this country want to
>claim a different name for their country, do you know what is written on
>their pasports? 
If they officially want to call their country Macedonia, I suppose that's what's on their passports. I really don't know.

>I can claim what ever I want to, do I have the right to do so? 
Sure.

>You found a couple of web pages, which say that this country should be known
>as M*, did you try to search for F*. You will find a couple of other web
>pages that say that this country should be known as F*. 
I did not. I merely support the idea of "this is what we usually do".

>The question is not what you and I thing is correct, but what is actually correct. 
There's no such thing -- or we wouldn't be having this discussion.
 
>>"nor is it under UN jurisdiction" 
>Really, do you leave in another planet? We are all under UN jurisdiction! 
No. The UN only make recommendations. The individual countries have the right to ratify or not.
 
>Which are the arguments of Stephan et al, that I have not met?
Well, how is this case different from that of Taiwan?
Comment 22 Vasilis 2004-04-26 21:44:04 UTC
>Well, how is this case different from that of Taiwan? 
 What do you mean? 

>If the Australian foreign office recommends "Macedonia" as a name, would you have quoted that? 
Are they?
This is the problem here. Only these people are calling their country M*. To the rest of the world it is known as F*
Comment 23 Vasilis 2004-04-26 22:48:07 UTC
>and who will look for Great Britain under 
>"United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland"? 

This implies that if instead of M* we have F* the people of that country will be confused.
Let see...
About 90% of the people who use a computer have windows installed. I will assume that the same percentage holds for that country.
Since, M$ calls this country "FYRO Macedonia", are not these people confused? Do they know that "FYRO Macedonia" is their country? If they do, how come? Could it be because despite of what they want to believe the name of their country is not M*, but F*?
 
Comment 24 Deathwing00 2004-04-27 09:53:12 UTC
>>How difficult is to understand that a certain name is given to this country.
>By who? KDE chooses the name used by the people living there. 

The problem is that the people that live in Makedonia are GREEKS and Makedonia is a territory of GREECE and WE as MAKEDONIANS want our name clean from those Yugoslavians. BTW, my point of view is not "uttering wrong facts in a discussion" :)

You must understand that it's us Makedonians, GREEKS, the only ones and uniques and that you are offending us by giving a country a name that WE OWN.

If you don't let us any other solution, you will force use to create a languange called Makedonian where everything will be in GREEK in order to defend ourselves from what is an obvious aggresion.
Comment 25 Deathwing00 2004-04-27 23:11:58 UTC
7 April 1993
RESOLUTION 817 (1993)
Adopted by the Security Council at its 3196th meeting,
on 7 April 1993

The Security Council,

Having examined the application for admission to the United Nations in document S/25147,

Noting that the applicant fulfils the criteria for membership in the United Nations laid down in Article 4 of the Charter,

Noting however that a difference has arisen over the name of the State, which needs to be resolved in the interest of the maintenance of peaceful and good-neighbourly relations in the region,

Welcoming the readiness of the Co-Chairmen of the Steering Committee of the International Conference on the Former Yugoslavia, at the request of the Secretary-General, to use their good offices to settle the above-mentioned difference, and to promote confidence-building measures among the parties,

Taking note of the contents of the letters contained in documents S/25541, S/25542 and S/25543 received from the parties,

   1. Urges the parties to continue to cooperate with the Co-Chairmen of the Steering Committee of the International Conference on the Former Yugoslavia in order to arrive at a speedy settlement of their difference;
   2. Recommends to the General Assembly that the State whose application is contained in document S/25147 be admitted to membership in the United Nations, this State being provisionally referred to for all purposes within the United Nations as "the former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia" pending settlement of the difference that has arisen over the name of the State;
   3. Requests the Secretary-General to report to the Council on the outcome of the initiative taken by the Co-Chairmen of the Steering Committee of the International Conference on the Former Yugoslavia. 
Comment 26 madboy_telis 2004-04-27 23:20:25 UTC
Fuck Yugoslavia!Macedonia is Greek and everyone who still believes or says the opposite is a big motherfucker...and should burn in hell the son-of-a-bitch. And this is no "Hardcore" fanatics like someone said,it is a matter of honor and we, Greeks, love our country and we don't want any Yugslavian piece of shit taking benefit by using the name and history of Macedonia.It's like we are defeated by globalization, have no moral values like patriotism and betray our ancestors who fought for the freedom of this country.
P.S:Would you like some nation appropriating the name of your country to take benefit?I believe not!!!
Comment 27 Deathwing00 2004-04-27 23:23:01 UTC
Before 1944 the area that later comprised of the former Yugoslavia's southern republic was not called Macedonia but was called Vardarska Banovina (Province -of the river- Vardar). It was in 1944 that (Joseph Broz) Marshal Tito, the Communist dictator ruling Yugoslavia at that time, created Yugoslavia's southern republic and called it "Socialist Republic of Macedonia". However, "Macedonia" was already the name of one of Greece's northern provinces. It is pertinent to note that Tito's Socialist Republic of Macedonia consisted of not only a small part of ancient Macedonia but also a far larger part from Slavic Yugoslavia. There is no doubt that creating this Republic in the southern region in Yugoslavia and including "Macedonia" in its name was deliberate with the main intention of laying claim to the region of ancient Macedonia of the northern province of Greece. Particularly, what Tito and his Communist allies wanted was the city of Thessaloniki with its lucrative warm water port.
Comment 28 Deathwing00 2004-04-27 23:24:10 UTC
 After 1944 a deliberate and systematic campaign was initiated for Yugoslavia's southern republic to take over the history of ancient Macedonia. "Scholars" from the "People's Republic of Macedonia" were commissioned to re-write their history books to include the ancient Macedonian History according to the wishes of the League of Communists of communist Yugoslavia, accompanied by perverted maps showing their "Macedonia" going all the way down to the northern half of Mount Olympus. Also, "linguists" led by Blagoj Konev, a.k.a. Blaze Koneski, were appointed to create the alphabet for and refine the "newly discovered" Macedonian language, which, of course, was made to sound as if it were the "natural development" of the ancient Macedonian language. Through their control of mass media and education, the government of "People's Republic of Macedonia" then introduced this language and claimed that it is the language that was spoken by the ancient Macedonians. However, this language is grammatically nearly identical to Bulgarian and, due to continuous government interventions, its vocabulary tends to include more Serbo-Croatian words that have replaced the Bulgarian words.

They clearly overlooked the unquestionable fact that the inhabitants of ancient Macedonia were Greeks and spoke the Greek language. Numerous excavations in all of the ancient Macedonia area have consistently unearthed relics clearly with Greek writings, and depictions of rulers clearly designated with Greek names. In ancient Greek culture, Macedonians celebrated the same festivals with the rest of the Greeks. They took part in the Olympic games which at the time was only participated in by the Hellenes. The regions that comprised the area of Macedonia all had Greek names. Furthermore, the architecture of the palaces, temples, theaters & ancient markets are all characteristic samples of ancient Greek architecture of the time. These Hellenic structures clearly included Greek writings on them which without a shodow of a doubt prove that they were dveloped by the Greeks and belonged to the Greeks. The ancient Macedonians believed in the same 12 Gods of Olympus as the rest of the Hellenes. In addition, the Macedonians fought together with the rest of the Hellenes against barbarians. To the Greeks at the time, a barbarian was defined as any group of people who did not share the same developed culture. Any group of people outside of civilized Greece was defended against by all of Greece, which included Macedonia. Last but certainly not least, Macedonia was a member of the Delphic Amfictiony, an institution which was open only to Greeks.....
Comment 29 Deathwing00 2004-04-27 23:25:02 UTC
Quotes Made by the Leaders of F.Y.R.O.M. that Contradict their Efforts
	 
  	  	 
  	
"We are Slavs who came to this area in the sixth century ... we are not descendants of the ancient Macedonians."
Quote from FYROM'S President Mr. Kiro Gligorov.
(from the Foreign Information Service Daily Report, Eastern Europe, February 26, 1992, p. 35.)

"We are Macedonians but we are Slav Macedonians. That's who we are! We have no connection to Alexander the Greek and his Macedonia. The ancient Macedonians no longer exist, they had disappeared from history long time ago. Our ancestors came here in the 5th and 6th century."
Quote from FYROM'S President Mr. Kiro Gligorov.
(from the Toronto Star newspaper, March 15, 1992)
(after these comments, there was a terrorist attack on the ex-president of the F.Y.R.O.M. Kiro Gligorov. It nearly cost him his life)

22 January 1999: FYROM'S Ambassador in Washington, Mrs. Ljubica Acevshka, gave a speech on the present situation in the Balkans. At the end of her speech answering questions Mrs. Acevshka said:
"We do not claim to be descendants of Alexander the Great." "Greece is FYROM'S second largest trading partner, and its number one investor. Instead of opting for war, we have chosen the mediation of the United Nations, with talks on the ambassadorial level under Mr. Vance and Mr. Nimitz."

In reply to another question about the ethnic origin of the people of FYROM, Ambassador Achevska stated:
"we are Slavs and we speak a Slav language."

24 February 1999: In an interview with the Ottawa Citizen, Gyordan Veselinov, FYROM'S Ambassador to Canada, admitted,
"We are not related to the northern Greeks who produced leaders like Philip and Alexander the Great. We are a Slav people and our language is closely related to Bulgarian."

He also commented
"there is some confusion about the identity of the people of this country."
	 
  	  	 
  	
Our View
	 
  	  	 
  	If they are not the ancestors of Alexander The Great, why would they want to use his symbols, culture, name and history in order to claim the whole Macedonian land as their own. Who gives them this right?In any case, occupying 10% of ancient Macedonian land does not give them the right to steal the Greek-Macedonian history and culture; especially when 40% of their country is inhabited by Albanians and another large percentage by Serbians, Bulgarians, etc. Who then are these people that are attempting to consider themselves Macedonians. The Macedonian civilization was part of the ancient Greek civilization. It is part of Greece's national inheritance and it can not be used by anyone else.
Comment 30 Waldo Bastian 2004-04-27 23:27:46 UTC
The United Resolution is interesting, I notice that it says:
this State being provisionally referred to for all purposes within the United Nations as "the former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia"

Since the use within KDE is not for a purpose within the United Nations, this resolution is not applicable. 

Please also note that Macedonia is written with a 'c', not with a 'k'. Although we often name programs with a 'k' to refer to their KDE heritage, we think this is inappropriate for countries, country names such as Kanada and Greeke would just be silly.

To learn more about Macedonia I suggest you visit http://www.gov.mk/English/ It has all kinds of interesting information about the country, including an audio version of the national anthem. 
Comment 31 madboy_telis 2004-04-27 23:36:48 UTC
Fuck Yugoslavia!Macedonia is Greek and everyone who still believes or says the opposite is a big motherfucker...and should burn in hell the son-of-a-bitch. And this is no "Hardcore" fanatics like someone said,it is a matter of honor and we, Greeks, love our country and we don't want any Yugslavian piece of shit taking benefit by using the name and history of Macedonia.It's like we are defeated by globalization, have no moral values like patriotism and betray our ancestors who fought for the freedom of this country.
And if Greeks called their own country the United States of America they should be known like this or the passports should write this?Our Country is called GREECE and includes the region of Macedonia and F.Y.R.O.M is Yugoslavia.
P.S:Would you like some nation appropriating the name of your country for their own benefit?I don't think so!
Comment 32 Deathwing00 2004-04-27 23:38:28 UTC
Your link is pretty useless as it shows nothing usefull...

We obviously have nothing against YOU but you must understand that we will insist till the bitter end with this matter. We cannot tolerate any kind of organization public or private to use the name of our region in such way. 

I also do not understand why are you just not willing to apply the UN resolution. If you read a bit more you'll see that, although FYROM is a temporal name, the name Macedonia or Republic of Macedonia for that country was BANNED directly from the UN, so expect to rather call it "Vardarska Banovina", it's true and real name and not OUR name. 

I AM MACEDONIAN (true and greek) and not a yugoslavian as those ********.
Comment 33 Stephan Binner 2004-04-27 23:43:31 UTC
FYI, the madboy_telis@hotmail.com account has been disabled because of comment 26 and comment 31 language and spamming.
Comment 34 Vasilis 2004-04-28 00:19:36 UTC
I do not understand this "Since the use within KDE is not for a purpose within the United Nations, this resolution is not applicable. " Why KDE is not within the United Nations? What about M$? Why did M$ conform with United Nations and KDE does not.

I do not understand why the KDE developers teams insists on not changing the name of the country. I can not thing of any reason why they should not, but many reasons why they should...

I would like to apologize for what madboy said. He, I and all the Greeks have no intention to insult any of you guys. We know that you are doing this for fun and it should be like this. But, that does not mean that we should not respect and pay attention to certain things...
Comment 35 Vasilis 2004-04-28 00:26:41 UTC
"Please also note that Macedonia is written with a 'c', not with a 'k'. Although we often name programs with a 'k' to refer to their KDE heritage, we think this is inappropriate for countries, country names such as Kanada and Greeke would just be silly."

I do not want to be offensive here, but this is silly. Next, you will tell me that MaCedoNia is different from Macedonia, because some letters are capitalized. 

Comment 36 Scott Wheeler 2004-04-28 02:02:33 UTC
Hi Vasilis --

While I understand that this is a politically charged issue there are a few important points:

The list *is not* a list of official country titles.  According to the United Nations I live in "The Federal Republic of Germany" which is rather close to the "French Republic" and "The Kingdom of the Netherlands".  However most people simply call these places "Germany", "France" and "The Netherlands".

It would of course be more accurate to use the full title, but this is inconvenient.

"Conforming to the United Nations" is not relevant because we are not attempting to convey an official name for the country (any of them), just providing a convenient name so that the country may be easily found.  Since this will most often be looked for by citizens of that country it of course makes sense to call it as they do.  While this title may not be liked by some others it serves its function most effectively -- for those looking for their country that is the title that they will be looking for.

KDE really doesn't have any requirement to call countries by any name.  We can call France "The Land of Garlic" and Greece "The Place that Pitas and Funny Letters Come From", but this obviously wouldn't be the most effective way of locating those countries.

And please -- of course put yourself in the other situation -- how would you feel if someone filed a bug suggesting that Greece should be called something other than what those who live in "Hellenic Greece" (apparently the official title) call it?

Please realize that this is about convenience and function -- not politics and official titles and as such "Macedonia" fills this role better for the moment.  If the common usage among the people of this country changes in the future, of course the term we use should reflect that, but this doesn't seem to be the case at the moment.
Comment 37 Vasilis 2004-04-28 03:39:37 UTC
Scott,

I will answer all your points one by one. 

""Conforming to the United Nations" is not relevant because we are not attempting to convey an official name for the country (any of them), just providing a convenient name so that the country may be easily found. Since this will most often be looked for by citizens of that country it of course makes sense to call it as they do. While this title may not be liked by some others it serves its function most effectively -- for those looking for their country that is the title that they will be looking for. "

I totally disagree with you. KDE is not a program that you wrote and you kept it to yourself. Is a program that is available to everybody. As such a program it should follow certain rules or else it will be consider as a propaganda. 

For the second part of your statement. You wrote "Since this will most often be looked for by citizens of that country it of course makes sense to call it as they do". I have written this question before, and I have not problem to ask this question again and again. Since the majority of the people are using Windows, how it comes and they are not confused with the name their country is listed on windows? I would like to remind you here, that under Windows their country is known as "FYRO Macedonian". So, this is not an argument, if you change the name of their country they will be unhappy, because their propaganda does not exist anymore, but they know that this is the true name of their  country.

"KDE really doesn't have any requirement to call countries by any name. We can call France "The Land of Garlic" and Greece "The Place that Pitas and Funny Letters Come From", but this obviously wouldn't be the most effective way of locating those countries. "

Personally, I would like to find Greece under the name Hellas, but I do not mind.

"And please -- of course put yourself in the other situation -- how would you feel if someone filed a bug suggesting that Greece should be called something other than what those who live in "Hellenic Greece" (apparently the official title) call it? "

If ever, I doubt, a bug like this is filed, please send me a personal email and we can discuss about it.

"Please realize that this is about convenience and function -- not politics and official titles and as such "Macedonia" fills this role better for the moment. If the common usage among the people of this country changes in the future, of course the term we use should reflect that, but this doesn't seem to be the case at the moment."

This is your mistake. Unfortunately, and I really mean it, KDE is involved in politics when the developers decide to give a name to a country which is not right and which causes many people to disagree with their desision. 

If at least you had a point, I would discuss this matter with you. But whatever you say is either irrational or unbased. On the other hand what we ask, is based on many different sources.

To make my point even stronger look at this site (I simple went to google and typed FYROM)
http://www.theodora.com/maps/macedonia_map.html

Pay attention to the link, it says macedonia_map, but read the name of the country. This is the propaganda, we are talking about. It makes me furious, for all the reasons that Deathwing00 mentioned above.

I know that you all mean well and because of that we are asking you to change the name of the country.

Comment 38 Matt Rogers 2004-04-28 04:33:26 UTC
Just out of curiousity, would you be calling and complaining to Microsoft if 
they used Macedonia instead of FYRO Macedonian?

Comment 39 Vasilis 2004-04-28 04:50:54 UTC
Yes, we would
Comment 40 Vasilis 2004-04-28 05:01:01 UTC
What makes you thing that we would not. This is not a game. 
Actually, I would have not have to do that. You see all the ministers,the prime minister and the president are using Windows. Therefore, they, my country, would have sue Microsoft and they would have demanded for the change. 
Comment 41 Matt Rogers 2004-04-28 05:37:53 UTC
On Tuesday 27 April 2004 10:01 pm, Vasilis wrote:
> ------- You are receiving this mail because: -------
> You are on the CC list for the bug, or are watching someone who is.
>
> http://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=80330
>
>
>
>
> ------- Additional Comments From v_gkanis hotmail com  2004-04-28 05:01
> What makes you thing that we would not. This is not a game.

Nothing. I was just curious. Pardon me for asking a question.

> Actually, I would have not have to do that. You see all the ministers,the
> prime minister and the president are using Windows. Therefore, they, my
> country, would have sue Microsoft and they would have demanded for the
> change.

Then maybe you should convince all the ministers, the prime minister, and the 
president to use KDE. ;-)

Comment 42 Vasilis 2004-04-28 06:31:44 UTC
I think you have a point, but then they would sue KDE and I do not want this to happen ;-)
Comment 43 Matt Rogers 2004-04-28 07:04:17 UTC
would changing the string from "Macedonia" to "Republic of Macedonia" be a suitable compromise?
Comment 44 Deathwing00 2004-04-28 10:21:04 UTC
>"And please -- of course put yourself in the other situation -- how would you
>feel if someone filed a bug suggesting that Greece should be called something
>other than what those who live in "Hellenic Greece" (apparently the official
>title) call it? "

The official name is 'Hellenic Republic' or 'Hellas'. And, to be sincere, I would preffer it called by its true name rather than the latin word for the country.
Comment 45 Vasilis 2004-04-28 16:22:06 UTC
Matt,

Please lets not start a debate that ended almost 10 years ago about which name is suitable. Since, this country is known as F.Y.R.O.M give this name or give a name like the one that M$ has, F.Y.R.O. Macedonia. Deathwind00 has to agree with me on this, however.

Deathwing00, "Hellenic Republic" is not correct. Please, we started a discussion about the name of another country and lets stay like that.
Comment 46 Matt Rogers 2004-04-28 16:45:14 UTC
Since you seem unwilling to compromise, I am also unwilling to compromise.
Your request for the changing of this name has been denied.

Comment 47 Vasilis 2004-04-28 17:19:41 UTC
Compromise? What is to compromise here? 
This is not something that belongs to me or you. This is not an argument between you and me, but between two nations. The name of this country is fixed and can not be changed.

I really do not understand why you want to change it and use a different one than the one that is already given to this country.
Comment 48 Waldo Bastian 2004-04-28 17:41:40 UTC
I agree, no change is needed.
Comment 49 Vasilis 2004-04-28 17:44:05 UTC
No, a change is needed ... not the one Matt is suggesting, however
Comment 50 Deathwing00 2004-04-28 18:40:43 UTC
I formally propose writting a formal letter to the Greek Ministry of Exterior Affairs about this.

If they don't understand that the word Macedonia cannot be in the name of that country and that we are making a big effort to even accept the name FYROM, I suppose that they do not want to dialogue.

I just hope this won't end up to courts.
Comment 51 Deathwing00 2004-04-28 20:09:43 UTC
Well, I have had enough of this, if the Greek users want to promote a petition to the Ministry, all of us will sign it. I'll stop discussing about this, it's a loss of time and as a linux developer I cannot waste my time talking to the wall.

Do as you wish, KDE developers.

Farewell.
Comment 52 Scott Wheeler 2004-04-28 22:18:47 UTC
> KDE is not a program that you wrote and you kept it to yourself. Is a program 
> that is available to everybody. As such a program it should follow certain 
> rules or else it will be consider as a propaganda.

KDE has no *legal* obligation to call it one thing or another.  Of course it may be argued that there are practical reasons to call countries by a certain title -- and that's in fact what we've discussed.  KDE is a project led by its developers and there is a concensus here among KDE developers that a change is not needed at this time.

Also what Microsoft does has little bearing on things.  KDE obviously has an independent decision making process and this process has acted here.  Of course it would be nice if everyone everywhere could always be happy with our decisions, but of course this is not the case.

> KDE is involved in politics when the developers decide to give a name to a
> country which is not right and which causes many people to disagree with 
> their desision.

...but not the people that live in that country.  I'm not saying that the decision has no political implications; I'm saying that the decision is not being made for political reasons.  I don't believe that any of the KDE contributors that have responded to this bug have a political agenda that they are trying to promote here.  (Specifically because I know where they're all from.  :-) )

I am once again closing this bug.  Please do not reopen it.  This discussion has gone on long enough and there is a concensus among the developers that the current name shall stay.  I will (without explanation) close this bug again if it is reopened.
Comment 53 Vasilis 2004-04-28 23:11:23 UTC
If you close this bug, I will open it again. Why did you close the bug in the first place. Is a bug, let it stay like that. If you do not want to fix it, do not fix it. But, do not close it.

I am not that naive to believe that you are not trying to promote something here.
From this discussion, I found out that KDE is being developed by a bunch of guys, who although they claim that what they are doing is for the user, in fact they do not really care about the consequences of their actions on the user. 

As I said if you do not want to fix this bug, do not fix it, but the bug stays open.
Comment 54 Irene 2004-04-28 23:28:42 UTC
I have always been believing that Linux is for the "thinking" people! Therefore, it is of
extreme disappointment to see how this issue has been handled by the KDE people.

They suggest that they choose the name of the country based on how the locals call it.
I dare ask them then: How come, in their list I see "Greece", and not "Hellas" ???
Isn't Hellas the way Greeks call their country?! I am, therefore, forced to believe that
their suggested reasoning/excuse for their naming choice is false.

Whether they want to face it or not, they get implicated in politics here, and they choose
to not abide to international laws and conventions. The name of the country in question
is Former Yugoslavian Republic of Macedonia. I agree this is too long of a name. But
why did they have to choose Macedonia, over FYROM ? This is a political choice, and
is understandably challenged. 

With regards to #52, Scott Wheeler,  does need to give a RATIONAL explanation
of why he closes this bug UNRESOLVED, and why he sticks to a politically wrong choice.
Comment 55 Maksim Orlovich 2004-04-28 23:31:43 UTC
Please do not reopen this bug. 
Comment 56 Vasilis 2004-04-29 00:39:25 UTC
"Please do not reopen this bug. "
Please change the name of this country.

Irene, you brought up a very good point.
Comment 57 Scott Wheeler 2004-04-29 03:40:26 UTC
You've been asked politely not to reopen this several times.  If you reopen this again your bugzilla account will be disabled.
Comment 58 Irene 2004-04-29 05:47:45 UTC
You are politely requested to give a legitimate answer.

I do not accept any threats (i.e. close my account).
In any case, why would I bother keeping the bugzilla
account open, if you do not even bother responding
with LEGITIMATE answers to users' questions/requests.

BTW, no one asnwered why Greece does not appear under
Hellas in the locale list. This whole bug report is a
joke !

Feel free to close my account.
Comment 59 Vasilis 2004-04-29 06:39:22 UTC
I do not respond to threats... If you close my account KDE is going to lose. I am a user who reports bugs, I am doing something usefull for the KDE community.

What makes you think that Irene or Deathwing00 or Slammer or mad_boy or Arkalis won't open a new bug report.
How many bug reports do you want us to open to make you understand that this important to us.
Comment 60 Deathwing00 2004-04-29 09:24:03 UTC
Paidia, sas akouse to nktouvari, sas akousan ki aftoi...
Comment 61 trex 2004-04-30 18:43:23 UTC
Please change the name to FYROM, or FYR Macedonia. This "name" incident is going on for at least 14 years. If Microsoft is doing it properly, why should you not do the same? It has nothing to do with policy, it has to do with what is right and what is wrong...
Comment 62 Metaxas Konstantinos 2004-05-01 02:51:41 UTC
The naming of FYROM and Macedonia is not a technicallity , but rather a 'hot' political issue. For this reason, until furhter solutions can be provided, the UN has decided to give a 'temporary' name of FYROM to this nation. 

By choosing to use Macedonia as the name for FYROM (which suits FYROM's purposes perfectly) KDE makes a political statement that it aknowledges that this state's name _should_ be FYROM.

It is neither prudent, nor the project's purpose to involve it's self in disputes between nations.

I would therefore request that you to adhere to the 'temporary' and _acceptable_ solution of using the name FYROM.
Comment 63 Metaxas Konstantinos 2004-05-01 02:54:36 UTC
>By choosing to use Macedonia as the name for FYROM (which suits FYROM's purposes >perfectly) KDE makes a political statement that it aknowledges that this state's >name _should_ be FYROM. 

I meant it aknowledges that it _should_ be Macedonia.
Comment 64 Irene 2004-05-05 17:29:09 UTC
I am still waiting for a rational answer to points made in #54...
Is KDE going to reply ?
Comment 65 Waldo Bastian 2004-05-05 18:03:09 UTC
Re #54: The government of the hellenic republic refers to the country as "Greece" on its website, not as "Hellas". http://www.mfa.gr/english/greece/

Comment 66 Deathwing00 2004-05-05 18:16:21 UTC
I feel that these developers are just kids that have no idea on politics.
Comment 67 Irene 2004-05-05 19:19:41 UTC
With regards to #65:

"Greece" is the name you can find under the UN agreements
and this is the reason you find this name in the website of the
ministry of foreign affairs of the HELLENIC  Republic.
However, people in Greece call their country Hellas.

If you choose to use "Greece", under the same tactic, you should
use "FYROM". If you decide to stick to "Macedonia" then you
should reason for your decision to use different policies for
different countries, and explain why this is not a political choice.
Comment 68 Metaxas Konstantinos 2004-05-05 21:21:57 UTC
Re: #65

On the web page that you mention, the Logo at the top of the page says: "Hellenic Republic, ministry of foreign affairs". 

As you see, the goverment of the Hellenic repubilc refers to itself as "Hellenic Republic". It does use the term Greece however whenever it involves foreign languages (as in.. ministry of foreign affairs..). The reason is that the rest of the world knows us as Greece. That's fine with us, because there is no "issue" with naming.  
You see, we are forced to use Greece when communicating with Non-Greeks because this is the term people _know_.  This has been deeply rooted into peoples minds and is difficult to change. 
What we Greeks do not want is for the name Macedonia to be given FYROM, not because the world decided after carefull research that indeed they _are_ Macedonians and can indeed make the claims they do, but because the name has been "associated" that country by "tradition".

When you accept this name you say: This country is named Macedonia. We recognize that and we will keep calling them Macedonia.

By doing this you contribute to the establishment of the name Macedonia. A name that this country apropriated. You contribute to the contruction of the image that FYROM is called Macedonia. So when the time comes to resolve this issue, everybody will be saying: "What issue? We all know it as Macedonia for all this time."

This is unfair to Greece
. For this reason (and others) the UN has given a temporary solution by naming them F.Y.R.O.M.

I an _not_ trying to convice you or anyone that X country (Be it Greece or FYROM) is is right or wrong. 

But you should not take sides either. By calling them Macedonians, 
you_recognize_ and accept them as Macedonians.

I am confident that you are not politicaly motivated and you have no agenda to push. But the "we don't care. We call them what they want us to." attitude is completely wrong in this case.  

By using the name FYROM , not only do you abide by UN decisions, but you also remain impartial and avoid involvement in an issue that is on going. 
On the conrary by choosing Macedonia , you violate the UN decision (ok, nobody is going after you.. but still.. the decision was made for a _reason_), and you take sides.

I fail to undestand how you can insist on taking sides.  Why? Because they call themsevels Macedonians? OF COURSE they would! How can you appropriate a name without using it? Does that make them right? -- it remains to be seen --.
Comment 69 Emmanouil Kouroupakis 2004-05-06 03:27:26 UTC
You don't get it don't you ???
Macedonia is greek before Jesus was born.
Fyrom was yugoslavia before.
Macedonia = Greece
FYROM = slavic , turkish , albanian nation 
Wake up finally
Comment 70 Waldo Bastian 2004-05-06 11:17:52 UTC
Re #69: You greek people are highly confusing, in #54 you say that Greece should be called Hellas, in #68 that it should be "Hellenic Republic" and now in #69 you say that Greece should be called Macedonia... I suggest you ask your government to contact us with the correct name to use for your country because this is going nowhere.
Comment 71 Emmanouil Kouroupakis 2004-05-06 15:31:27 UTC
I never said that Greece should be called Macedonia. Learn how to read man. I'm saying that macedonia IS greece.
Macedonia is an ancient greek name for a region as is thrace , thessalia etc that greeks lived there. Learn some history.
Remember Alexander The Great? Alexander was a greek man who was born in the macedonia region. According to this map http://www.ancientanatolia.com/map09.htm
and to FYROM way of thinking , even egypt or iraq can call themselves macedonia. Is this correct or true? Or can you say that alexander , a man who spoke the greek language , believed to the same gods and regarding himself as greek , was not greek ?

Btw The correct name is Hellas and not greece. Since ancient time (Homer Oddessy) we call ourselfs hellines , and our country hellas. But since you don't know this word we use the "greece" word so you can understand what we are reffering to.

Learn some history and how to think and distinguish propaganda from truth.
Also forgive my bad english :-)
Comment 72 trex 2004-05-06 18:12:01 UTC
The term "Greece" which is currently used in all international communities has been derived from a term "Grecia" used by the latins to name all the hellenic region which included Peloponisos, Thesalia, St. Ellada, Macedonia, Thrace, Hipeiros, the Aegean, Crete, Cyprus and Asia Minor. It started around 1300, and was well established during the 1500. The use of this term was never intended to be used to falsify historical facts like which are "hellenic" adn which are not. The term "Macedonia" was and is still used to name all the region which is currently populated by greeks, bulgarians and slavic ethnicities. The bulgarians never claimed to be "Macedonians" even though they are currently living in a region which was and still is Macedonia. Their people had already established their country in the early 900 and claimed parts of this land. The slavic people of the Skopje region however, because of communist propaganda that started in the early 1950's DO CLAIM THAT they are an individual tribe called "Macedonians". 

Anyway, this problem is too complicated to be solved by us. It is however your duty to comply to the UN regulations for the currently correct name of this country, which have been established specifically because the name issue is still a "hot" topic.
Comment 73 Deathwing00 2004-05-06 21:17:02 UTC
Main announcement at http://forums.gentoo.org/viewtopic.php?t=165722
Comment 74 Irene 2004-05-06 23:25:10 UTC
Ref #70, Waldo :
It surprises me that you have trouble understanding that the Hellenic Republic is the same Hellas.
So, do you also have trouble associating "The Federal Republic of Germany", the "French Republic",
and "The Kingdom of the Netherlands" with Germany, France and Netherlands ?
Let's not play silly games here, or pretend to be naive!

So far,  your one and _only_ reasoning has been that you stick to the term "Macedonia", because this
is how locals call their country. And, I am proving to you that your reasoning is wrong because this
is not the way you chose for Greece, or other countries in your list!

Therefore, please provide some valid excuse/reason for the use of term "Macedonia", or you
would need to change it to FYROM...
Comment 75 Waldo Bastian 2004-05-07 00:07:51 UTC
Re #74: I have already pointed out in #65 that the greek government refers to the country as greece. If that is not the correct name, then I suggest you contact your government and petition it to change the name of your country on its website to Hellas. Further, since you agree that it is perfectly reasonable to refer to "The Federal Republic of Germany" as "Germany", it is just as reasonable to refer to "The Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia" as "Macedonia". Since we don't list FRG, FR or TKOTN, there is no precent for listing Macedonia as FYROM.

Please also note that KDE is open source and that you are totally free to make modification in your own copy of KDE to match your personal nationalist agenda and to share such copy with your fellow country men. You could for example, remove Macedonia completely from the list of countries and then enjoy hours of fun selecting different countries and languages in the control center. Or, alternatively, rename Greece in Hellas, and think back to the good old times where the Greek^WHellenic empire was still great and this handsome Alexander guy was still horsing around. Just some suggestions in case you get bored with spamming this board here.
Comment 76 Deathwing00 2004-05-07 00:45:22 UTC
Dudes, I think you are mad... it seems that you don't understand what you are doing... I really wouldn't like to sue KDE for that, but be sure I'll do it to defend my land.
Comment 77 Irene 2004-05-07 00:45:56 UTC
#75: Your first paragraph is amazing...I am sorry, but you either have a learning/understanding
problem (in which case who hired you there ?!), or you do not _want_ to understand (in which
case you deserve your ignorance and my pity!). Either way, you are not worth my efforts and time. 

As for your second paragraph (that's a Greek word btw, and FYROM has not claimed it yet!)..
So you think what we say is spamming ? Well here you go :
Did you ever read whatever people have said so far, or are you just closing your eyes and
pity yourself for being dutch and not Greek ?! I suppose you cannot grasp the point we are
trying to make because when Greeks created philosophy (another Greek word!), your
ancestors were still hanging from trees collecting bananas! And when your turn came
to make a contribution to this world... all you contributed was heineken!
NOW THIS IS SPAMMING AND FEEL FREE TO ENJOY IT!  LOL.
Comment 78 Metaxas Konstantinos 2004-05-07 01:04:28 UTC
Re#75
What on earth are you talking about?
1) Your point about Germany FYROM WOULD have been valid if there was not naming dispute. Such as is the case with Germany. The same is also true for Greece. The official name is Hellenic Republic but calling us Greece is OK! There are no disputes, no agendas to push , and no problems whatsoever. 
HOWEVER, in the case of FYROM there _IS_ a naming dispute. For this reason the UN decided that the name should be FYROM until the dispute is resolved. Unless you think that the UN is pushing Greece's nationalist propaganda (in which case i pity you) then you _have_ to accept the name FYROM. 

If you ,sir, cannot distinguish between the case of Germany (and Greece) and the case of Macedonia then you have a serious problem. If you think that cases of naming conventions (as is with Greece and Gemrany) are the same (or comparable) with a _SERIOUR_ naming dispute (that even involved territorial claims by FYROM when it first surfaced) then i doubt that you are capable of making decisions on this matter. 


2)Regarding your point tha KDE is open source and we can change it on our own "fork". 

So what you are saying is that KDE can pretty much wrong people, decide on flaming political issues have not been resolved (i suppose you _DO_ know what the name should be, but the UN does not), and generaly ignore people by telling them to fork?

I don't know where you are from but let's assume you are an American. How would you like it if some country decided one fine morning to call themselves the United States of America, adopt your flag, your national Anthem, and present George Washington as a their own hero. Then they go about printing history books that present the whole situation as such? (oh, and even claim California, until you threaten with war..)
Then on top of that you have some ignorant people, who do not take the time to learn, nor do they respect official decisions, telling you that Americans are nationalists for demanding that this country changes it's name. 
They tell you: "Well if that's what they want to be called then what's it to you?" 


3) Concercing your last snide remarks. This is the saddest part of all. Making these remarks proves that you are incapable of serious argumentation, but have abolutely no inhibition of indulging yourself with the popular art of unispired mockery. Well done sir.


PS. If you have _evidence_ to claim this as Greek nationalist propaganda is challenge you to present it. Otherwise your remark has given me the right to consider you as the embodiment of ignorance with the confidence of an encyclopedia.
Comment 79 Vasilis 2004-05-07 01:17:56 UTC
It is my obligation to open this bug (a bug that was not never resolved!!!)

>Further, since you agree that it is perfectly reasonable to refer to "The >Federal Republic of Germany" as "Germany", it is just as reasonable to refer >to "The Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia" as "Macedonia". Since we don't >list FRG, FR or TKOTN, there is no precent for listing Macedonia as >FYROM. ....

It seems to me that you have no IDEA of what we are talking about here. I strongly suggest you to read this bug from the beginning and maybe have a history book on the side, just in case you want to verify everything that is written here.  

KDE Developers, as you can see this is something that is important to us. The number of people who have voted has increased and will keep increasing unless you fix this bug.
Comment 80 George Staikos 2004-05-07 01:25:50 UTC
Ok, you can claim that they don't understand the arguments, but you can't claim that I don't.  I am reassigning this bug to me, and I will review it as an independent third party who was not originally involved.  I don't want to see any more comments posted here, and if you don't respect the bug system and the decisions made, I will have to have your access disabled.  Leave things alone, cool down, and let me read and think about it.
Comment 81 Cereal Killer 2004-05-07 16:31:57 UTC
Macedonia is a region in northen greece.. the correct is FYROM
Comment 82 Irene 2004-05-10 14:23:32 UTC
I received the following two messages from Andreas Pour <pour@mieterra.com>.
I post them below :

1)
===================================================
Hi,

The name of the country is a disputed issue.  This means no matter what is done,
someone will be unhappy; such is the nature of the dispute.

I actually spent the time to read almost the entire thread, and essentially
there are a small number of arguments for changing what the maintainer chose to
include as the country's name.  The first is, what Microsoft calls that
country.  I think it is fair to say, nobody cares about that; certainly you
would not, if they were on the other side of the fence from you on this issue. 
More realistically, Microsoft simply is using the UN's name for the country.

This brings us to the second argument (and I believe there are only these two,
despite that they were enunciated in many different ways):  what the UN calls
the country.  First the Greek posters tended to point heavily at the UN
resolution which gave a temporary name for UN *internal* purposes to the
country.  See http://www.un.org/Overview/unmember.html ("By resolution
A/RES/47/225 of 8 April 1993, the General Assembly decided to admit as a Member
of the United Nations the State being provisionally referred to for all purposes
within the United Nations as 'The former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia' pending
settlement of the difference that had arisen over its name.").

Further investigation shows, however, that this country is regularly referred to
as the "Republic of Macedonia" in subsequent UN proceedings.  A list of URLs
includes:

	* http://www.un.org/webcast/ga/57/statements/020917macedoniaE.htm (Heading
"Macedonia", sub-caption "THE REPUBLIC OF MACEDONIA")
	* http://www.un.org/webcast/ga/58/statements/maceeng030924.htm (repeatedly
referred to as "the Republic of Macedonia")
	* http://www.un.org/WCAR/statements/macedoniaE.htm (same)
	* http://www.un.org/ga/children/macedoniaE.htm (same)

See generally
http://www.google.com/search?q=macedonia%20site%3Awww.un.org&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8 .

Moreover, I do not see the UN as an authority on this matter, even, as is not
the case, if they had assigned a name to the country for non-internal purposes. 
My prediction is that if the UN grants the country at question the name
"Macedonia", that those opposed to that name will not repeat the arguments they
make now about deferring to the UN.

It is also the case that in almost all cases the KDE country name removes
political descriptions from country names (e.g., People's Republic of China,
Kingdom of Norway, Federal Republic of Germany).

Thus I have to conclude that the maintainer has acted reasonably and not abused
his discretion, whether or not I agree with the ultimate outcome, which is not
relevant.

Overall, I do think that the maintainers have given adequate consideration to
your concerns.  I also realize that it is very unsatisfying not to have the
issue resolved the way you feel is right.

But please bear in mind that you can change the name however you want, and
distribute patches for your colleagues with those changes included.  Indeed
whoever distributes CDs in Greece can do this for everyone.  This freedom you do
not have with Microsoft :-).

Regards,

Andreas Pour

2)
=====================================================================
Irene Moulitsas wrote:
> 
> Hello,
> 
> I read your message carefully, and I noticed that you have not commented
> about
> the historical and political issues mentioned by all the people who took
> their
> valuable time and pointed them out. You only seem to have concentrated on
> Microsoft and UN which are not the most important points made (especially
> microsoft!).

Hi, Irene,

I have not commented on historical arguments b/c even if I assume that each
point raised in the thread is true, I don't see how that matters.

For example:  I live in a city called "Omaha".  The Omaha, as you probably are
not aware, used to be a Native American tribe that lived in the area now bearing
the municipal (city) name "Omaha".  Except this tribe doesn't live here
anymore:  along with countless other Native American tribes, the Europeans
colonizers wiped them out, more or less (the rest of them are concentrated on a
"reservation").

How does this relate to the issue of "Macedonia"?  The point is that there is no
end to the number of places that have false, misleading names.  The City of
Omaha is no longer the home of the Omaha - they have been annihilated and thrown
into a concentration camp (we call them "reservations" here).  Thus, factually
speaking, the name "Omaha" is incorrect.

The more fundamental point is:  people get to name their own political
subdivisions.  If the people of Omaha, for whatever reasons, choose to rename
this city "Macedonia", there is nothing you can do to stop that.  What do you
know, there even is a city in the US called Macedonia, see
http://www.macedonia.oh.us/.  Do you want to petition them, to change their name
as well, as it is not historically accurate to call this place "Macedonia"?

One could go on, of course.  The name of the State "New York", of course, is a
reference to the city of "York" in Great Britain (indeed a good part of the City
of New York has names based on English political subdivisions).  It is also
clear, that there is no historical basis for claiming that this land on the
Eastern US seaboard is currently related to the York of England.  Yet, everyone
recognizes, that New Yorkers have the right to pick the name of their own city /
state.

The bottom line is, a country chooses the name to call itself - Hellenics are
free to call themselves Greeks, Hellenics or anything else they choose.  Each
country is free to do so, as long as it does not pick the exact same name as
another country (and remember how there used to be two Germanys and two
Vietnams, and now there are two Koreas, with the only name difference being am
political description?).

Thus I replied only to the UN argument (and I would note that the only reason
the name in the UN is so protracted and temporary is to Greece's objection).

> Also, I would like to ask you to identify your position and relation to KDE,

I am simply a KDE contributor.  The way KDE is organized, the most "official"
person you can contact about your concern is the maintainer of the module, and
you have already done so via the bug report.

> and please
> forward your message to the KDE bug forum. I am sure people will be happy to
> explain (again) their opinions to you.

I have already read the opinions.

While I truly and genuinely sympathize with your position, reality is against
you.  I would note that there are plenty of groups in the world who misrepresent
who they are by "fraudulently" donning historical names that have very little if
not nothing to do with them.  The only way to combat this is by education, not
by forcing others to change their self-chosen name.

Regards,

Andreas Pour

Comment 83 Irene 2004-05-10 14:37:12 UTC
With regards to the points made by Andreas Pour.
It is sad that people think this way. It is one thing to use another city's name
and is another thing to claim the identity of a nation and claim their territorial
land. 

The examples mentioned (two germanies, omaha etc) are completely
irrelevant !!! Both west and east Germans were *Germans* !  People who live
in Omaha today do not claim to be native Native Indians! I am surprised with this 
oversimplified parallelism.

With the case of FYROM, these people live in the land were Macedonians lived
thousands years ago. However, they are not descedants of Macedonians, do not
speak their language, and do not share the same background. Therefore, they are
not entitled to be called Macedonians.  Read any history book and you will know this.

And please please... do not attempt naive parallelisms unless you have historical
evidence that proves the cases are similar. These parallelisms are dangerous!

I am sorry I was forced to post here again, but these points had to be answered in
public and not with private emails.
Comment 84 Vasilis 2004-05-10 17:11:06 UTC
>While I truly and genuinely sympathize with your position, reality is against 
> you. I would note that there are plenty of groups in the world who >misrepresent who they are by "fraudulently" donning historical names that have >very little if not nothing to do with them. The only way to combat this is by > education, not by forcing others to change their self-chosen name. 

A very good point, Andreas Poor, indeed a very good point.

Since you agree that these people are "fraudulently" donning historical names, why do you want to help them on keep doing this?

George Staikos, I am sorry for writting again, since you have asked us not to do so, but this was something new and I think that it should be answered.
Comment 85 Tassos 2004-05-11 01:39:06 UTC
This thread has gone wild, so here are a few facts to clear this out:
0. This thread will not decide how each country should be called.
1. This list does not include full countries' names. It includes *conventional short forms*. Hence, we have Germany, France, etc. The United Kingdom of Great Britain and and Northern Ireland will thus become "United Kingdom" (people from the UK know that their country will be listed under U and will not go to G for Great Britain). These short forms are well-defined in order to avoid confusion. A professional software product calls a country just like the international community does. A developer writing something for a hobby could call his country 1337L4ND, but I dont thing KDE should think this way.
2. This list does not list countries as people call them. It would then be "Ellas" or "Ellada" for Greece, "Makedonja" for FYROM, Deutschland for Germany, and "The States" for USA. 
3. As any country list that doesn't want to raise a political issue does, this list should not take parts. Thus, "the inhabitants count" is not a diplomatic strategy.
4. Being "a hardcore greek" in this thread is just lame, so please relax (this goes to lot's of fellow greeks who raised their voices before).
5. Have a look here: http://www.odci.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/mk.html#Govt here: http://www.odci.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/mk.html#Intro and here: http://www.un.org/Overview/unmember.html. The last link is the official member list of the UN. Almost all countries are listed in their conventional short form (Germany, France, Greece) but F* is listed as "The former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia". If this hadn't turned into a flame, those three links should be enough.
6. Microsoft's approach is also wrong IMHO, as it tries to satisfy both "sides", complying partially with the UN. Software is not a place for politics.

Because of the above, I believe that KDE should follow the international rules and call this country like the CIA or the UN or the EU.

That would be "Macedonia, The Former Yugoslav Republic of" or "The former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia". FYROM is an *unofficial* short form. There are other countries with no short form too:
http://www.odci.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/sx.html#Govt
http://www.odci.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/cg.html#Govt (not to be confused with Republic of the Congo)
http://www.odci.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/fm.html#Govt

I really regret that I had to write so much, but maybe the above will help in future conflicts as well.
Comment 86 Sashmit Bhaduri 2004-05-13 22:13:34 UTC
As far as I know, these country names are in en_US.. that means that they should be whatever what most American English-speakers refer to the country as, which is Macedonia, not F.Y.R.O.M. This is similer to, for example, Taiwan. Nobody who speaks American English refers to Taiwan as China. 

The Greek i18n team, of course, should be free to call it whatever the majority of greek speakers want in their own locale, but leave en_US to what most Americans-English speakers use. 

Comment 87 az3rty 2004-05-14 02:11:32 UTC
It's inevitable that FYROM will be officially renamed to Republic of Macedonia in a few years. They were forced to accept the temporary name FYROM as an official name because of a bunch of wacko greek nationalists that made a big fuss out of nothing. The greek government started an embargo and the rest is history. Fortunately, only some right-wing extremists keep an interest on the issue and it will soon close as silently as possible.

Don't change the country's name. It's totally pointless 

We should keep free software communities, free from nationalists and all kinds of fascists.

-- A developer from Greece
Comment 88 Vasilis 2004-05-14 04:35:53 UTC
>Don't change the country's name. It's totally pointless
>We should keep free software communities, free from nationalists and all kinds of fascists.

Who is fascist again?
Because this is a free software, it does not give you the right to say whatever you want to. If you do not like how things are today, I am sorry but get used to it. The name of this country is F.Y.R.O.M and it won't change, no matter how hard some illiterate people may try to.
Comment 89 Vasilis 2004-05-14 04:42:16 UTC
Sashmit Bhaduri,

Do you know where this country is? The fact that some people are reckless enough to use a wrong name for this country, when the U.S Department of State has informed the English/American people not to do so, that does not mean that this is the name that everybody should use.

The name of this country must change for one reason: The country name in en_US is F.Y.R.O.M, no other name is allowed.
Comment 90 Sashmit Bhaduri 2004-05-14 04:56:39 UTC
> #89 From Vasilis

Yeah, I know where the country is, as well as where Greece is.. although I don't know much about the dispute :-)

All I know is that here in America, it is called "Macedonia", even if the state department calls it "F.Y.R.O.M". Locales tend to use terms that are widely used in a locale, rather than offical terms. Macedonia is, F.Y.R.O.M isn't.. :-)
Comment 91 Vasilis 2004-05-14 05:38:38 UTC
>Macedonia is, F.Y.R.O.M isn't.. :-) 
 
No, it is not.
Macedonia is a place in Greece. I strongly recommend you to read comment 25, 27,28,29. There is a brief review of the dispute.

Giving such a name to a country, which is a neighbor country, means that this country has every right to the things that come with that name, i.e. history, culture. I would not have any problem with this if all these were true, but they are not. According to many historians, Macedonians inhabited this land centuries before they inhabited the place which now is known as F.Y.R.O.M.  Therefore, they have no right to call themselves Macedonians and many other things.
Comment 92 Sashmit Bhaduri 2004-05-14 07:28:28 UTC
> #91 From Vasilis 2004-05-14 05:38 ------

Yeah, thanks, I understand the dispute now. However, the point still stands that Macedonia is used in common speech *IN AMERICAN ENGLISH* as the name of the country in American English and thus should be the text in en_US. 

It has *nothing* to do with the dispute or political issues, and is consistant with other such disputes, such as Taiwan versus China. 
Comment 93 Tassos 2004-05-14 10:26:45 UTC
This is worthless. The comments #86 and #87 are insulting (next time you might as well call me Osama) but I will not start a flame with a bunch of geek kids who dont know a thing about international affairs. Let's see if there are any people above 12 that actually *read* the previous comments and their sources.
Comment 94 Charis Charalambous 2004-05-14 11:08:14 UTC
It's true guys,Macedonia is a region in northen Greece...the correct name is FYROM. 
Comment 95 George Staikos 2004-05-14 11:41:17 UTC
Come on folks, leave it alone.  There is a discussion to accept some sort of international standard for countries, names, and codes.  Whatever comes of it will come of it.  Furthermore, the i18n team for that country will have their input on what will be used.  Fighting on here is just pointless, and it's the wrong forum for these dicussions.
Comment 96 Deathwing00 2004-05-14 11:45:37 UTC
> Comment #87
O Kolokotronis kai ta palikaria tou... kai o PRODOTIS!
az3rty at yahoo.co.uk: Karfi, Iouda, ...
Comment 97 asterix 2004-05-14 12:18:10 UTC
MAKEDONIA  xakousti tou Alexantrou i xora
Comment 98 trex 2004-05-14 18:11:42 UTC
I would ask you guys not to write comments in greenglish. Its not proper for the non-greeks, since they do not know greek and they would not know how to categorize your messages.

As for this dispute, I accept comment 95 as a genuine efford on behalf of the KDE people to take a look at this name problem with F.Y.R.O.M. That's all that we ask , right?

One final comment: The name dispute has nothing to do with nationalism, as some commenters claimed. The situation in the Balkans is highly complicated and the KDE people should at least try not to throw more fuel into the already_burning fire that started some decades ago. Perhaps a solution similar to "Macedonia, the former yugoslav republic of" would be a good idea?
Comment 99 Vasilis 2004-05-18 16:23:45 UTC
There is one thing that I did not understand, why did you close the bug?
Comment 100 Stephan Kulow 2004-05-18 17:10:39 UTC
it has been said that bugs.kde.org is not the right forum to discuss policy changes and this is the last comment in this bug.