Bug 77901 - One should be able to disable the addition of dash-dash-space to signature
Summary: One should be able to disable the addition of dash-dash-space to signature
Status: RESOLVED WORKSFORME
Alias: None
Product: kmail
Classification: Applications
Component: general (show other bugs)
Version: unspecified
Platform: Mandrake RPMs Linux
: NOR wishlist
Target Milestone: ---
Assignee: kdepim bugs
URL:
Keywords:
: 82758 (view as bug list)
Depends on:
Blocks:
 
Reported: 2004-03-18 11:02 UTC by Shlomi Fish
Modified: 2008-07-29 18:08 UTC (History)
3 users (show)

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Latest Commit:
Version Fixed In:


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Description Shlomi Fish 2004-03-18 11:02:54 UTC
Version:            (using KDE KDE 3.2.0)
Installed from:    Mandrake RPMs
OS:          Linux

When I specify in kmail that the signature should be added to the bottom of the E-mail it adds a dash-dash-space ("-- ") for every message I open. I remove it manually, but it is still highly annoying because I don't like the dash-dash-space convention:

http://www.mail-archive.com/haifux%40haifux.org/msg00933.html

Kmail should have an option not to add dash-dash-space to the signature without me specifically instructing it to do so.
Comment 1 Ingo Klöcker 2004-03-19 22:03:31 UTC
Sorry, but we won't change this. But KMail is Free Software so you'll always have the possibility to change it in your personal copy of KMail.

The reasons you gave are not valid for KMail. You can quote the signature by selecting it and then pasting it as quotation. And KMail never adds the signature before the forwarded message.

Comment 2 Shlomi Fish 2004-03-21 12:56:47 UTC
This is annoying. I cannot write a patch to fix it in any subsequent version of kmail that I download, because _I install them from RPMs_. I don't like the dash-dash-space, and there's no reason kmail should force this upon me. People  who like this can always add it to their signature. I cannot, however, remove it because it's not there and it was added 
Comment 3 Shlomi Fish 2004-03-21 13:32:07 UTC
Furthermore, people who use other mailers that are not able to copy and paste, cannot quote the signature. And if I put something afterwards, it will also become unreachable.

I've been removing the "-- " from the signature times and again, and I find it highly irritating. There's no reason kmail should force it upon the user, especially if the user does not wish it to be present. And like I said, I cannot fix it in all my future versions, because I install them from binary RPMs, and would have to convince my packages vendor to accept my patch, or to recompile the RPMs time and again, or other kludges like that.

Comment 4 Kai Lahmann 2004-03-21 13:46:22 UTC
that's how a signature is defined: something, which CANNOT be quoted.
Comment 5 Ismail Donmez 2004-07-20 21:08:42 UTC
*** Bug 82758 has been marked as a duplicate of this bug. ***
Comment 6 Brian DeRocher 2004-12-08 21:11:50 UTC
If i wanted the "--" to be part of my signature, i would have put it there.  What's the benefit of forcing it upon users?
Comment 7 Artemio 2004-12-08 22:19:12 UTC
I agree with all the users who vote for this bug. Saying that you'll never make an opensource app configurable to users taste sounds kinda strange ;-)

I think the best solution would be to have "--" by default in the "input field below" in KMail signature dialog, so a user will use that if he wants or replace that with what he wants.

Comment 8 Mikolaj Machowski 2004-12-09 01:17:47 UTC
Maybe a compromise: make this configurable in some obscure string in .kde dir.
Comment 9 Brian DeRocher 2004-12-09 17:23:54 UTC
I agree with Artemio.  There is already a field for this.  Adding another configurable option just adds complexity.
Comment 10 Wouter Van Hemel 2005-03-21 02:38:02 UTC
I understand it's a good thing for the internet and especially mailinglists to force the use of sig-dashes; but in personal email, it feels wrong to be forced to add such a sig-dash. This kind of attitude -- and this is not meant as a flame -- is what drove (and drives) many people away from Gnome. "You shall not choose; we the almighty developers shall tell you how to use your own software. Kiss your options goodbye, ignorant end-user fool".

In fact, I remember personally discussing this (sig-dashes) a few years ago in Evolution when I tried it. And soon I stopped using it because of this and many similar (e.g. fixed line wrapping width) tiny but annoying enforced "developer defaults".

I agree with Artemio's idea. Put a sigdash by default in the signature dialog, and add a short explanation/hint/warning. Don't force, the contents of an email is the users' realm -- it's a psychological border, in a way. Noone should dictate laws, even pro forma, about the contents of private email messages.
Comment 11 Artemio 2005-03-21 09:03:27 UTC
Thanks, Wouter! That is exactly what I meant.
Comment 12 Petteri Klemola 2005-05-08 17:59:30 UTC
I just started to use Kmail and the this is the last thing I would change. It was nice suprice to see someone finally did something right. It is very good way to force "-- " standard. If you should want to use signature use it properly.
Comment 13 Wouter Van Hemel 2005-05-08 20:16:20 UTC
Terve,

I totally agree for mailing lists. But I have a right to just use my name in personal email communications with close relatives and friends. Or even a large ascii art drawing. The contents of my email is mine, not yours, not KDEs, not IETFs. Akin to traffic laws: on public streets I must follow traffic rules, not so on my own property.

This, by itself, is only a small matter, but I want to resist to open source ending up more inflexible than closed source because of unarbitrary policies and regulatory zealotry. Let the software be flexible. Guide, don't force.
Comment 14 Scott 2007-10-30 23:15:22 UTC
If anyone is still watching this bug, I've implemented this feature with the patch in bug 16480

http://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=16480
Comment 15 Michael S. Olsen 2008-07-28 22:32:58 UTC
I must concur with the many who find being forced into using the "-- " convention both awkward and violating.  While the convention was of reasonable importance 10 years ago, especially on Unix based systems, it has generally out grown its effective use and purpose today.  Today, many of us have not only a simple closing and our name, but an entire block of information that we routinely add at the bottom of email (e.g. Sig Block with office number, hours, office address and email).  Forcing the use of this very old convention is pointless and greatly detracts from a professional appearance.

More important is the concept behind the action. Open source software is supposedly meant to be configurable to the end users needs; however with the current methods of distribution and the need to be able to maintain and upgrade with reasonable ease, forcing a nearly outdated and meaningless convention on people is essentially an ethics breach. It makes you no different than the unresponsive Microsoft Corp. and other closed source software producers.

My suggestion is simple. Give a simple checkbox option below the field for signatures allowing for the convention. If you wish, make it active by default. This still allows the end user to create a custom ending to THEIR emails, but allows them to choose whether or not to follow the "-- " convention.  

Personally, I handle about 50 military and US Government emails a day.  All are required by regulation to have and use specific signature block formats.  In the US Gov & Mil, the "-- " convention is specifically forbidden.  Your enforced use is actually on major reason that KMail, along with Evolution and others, is not being installed.  MS Outlook has become a defacto standard do to your unwillingness to provide your users the options that matter to THEM.  I am exceptionally diss appointed in the KMAIL and KDE teams for their lack of attention to and respect for the customer's needs.  This is the simplest wish to address and fix KMAIL has had and it has not been fixed after 5 years of being addressed
Comment 16 Thomas McGuire 2008-07-29 12:57:31 UTC
No idea why this bug report is still open, the option is there in the KDE4 version.
Comment 17 Michael S. Olsen 2008-07-29 16:53:56 UTC
Thomas, if the option is in KDE4 (which I am using) then obviously many of us are missing it.  Would you be good enough to inform us how to turn off this annoyance.  Your help would be most greatly appreciated.  Thanks for you patients, help and understanding.
Comment 18 Thomas McGuire 2008-07-29 17:06:59 UTC
Settings->Configure KMail->Composer->General->Prepend separator to signature
Comment 19 Michael S. Olsen 2008-07-29 18:06:32 UTC
Thomas, Thanks for the help.  I also notice that many other subtleties (e.g. placing the signature before quoted text) were also added to the KDE4 version.  A great many thanks to you and the team for your help and support.