If you know any one willing to do a free complete well kerned font for kde for free please start, I have been trying for several years to convince font forgers to do somthing like that, Usualy with the result of mee being insulted for sudgesting the concept of  a free done for free font.

Any way kde does not ship font's I do recoment de use on screen apps liberation sans.

Nuno, let's contact the guys who are actually doing free and well kerned fonts, that get into the Google Web Fonts project. 

http://www.google.com/webfonts

You can contact some of those designers, on behalf of KDE, about a Free font (not only about price, also about plain freedoms, a lot of those fonts are licensed under SIL Open Font License)

Also, a blog post requesting a font would be great. Let's be more open about our needs.

You see anything thre that you find even remotly decent?

95% look only decorative, Screen Font making is no kids game takes years of experienve to do it well and even more so to do the kerning and hinting instructions right....
As a comparison a complete font is as much work as oxygen icons was/is aka several years to make

I've used Lato with excellent results on 2 different computers.

It's true that making a good screen font may take years. It's also true that making KDE itself good takes years. Cantarell was itself a buggy font; no one was expecting a perfect design. There are bugs filed against it in the GNOME tracker, and one of them bited me hard (reverse question mark sign done wrongly). The Ubuntu font also was buggy when it was first released, and there were bugs filed against it.

Even Oxygen has its flaws, and has bugs filed against it. And one of them also bites me hard (the lack of a visible indication about what part of the interface is highlighted when I press Tab, including lack of tab highlighting)

I agree it's a lot of work. However, with a Free font we can overcome those issues slowly. Be more tolerant about sloppy designs, let's be open about the process, and let us have a great screen font.

http://ompldr.org/vYjFjaA

Font used: Lato, by Łukasz Dziedzic.
Licensed under SIL Open Font License (compatible licensing)
Sizes: General size, 8.5 pt; Small size, 6.5 pt. Display at 125 dpi.
Distro: Chakra Linux; stock Freetype in its latest release, Cairo, Xft and Fontconfig with Ubuntu patches.
Configuration: subpixel rendering enabled, hinting set at Slight.

Does not strick me fundamently difrent from say Liberation san's.
Not terribly bad and way better than most thing out there, the kerning not sure it convinces-me and the RGB hinting not at all but then again im not a fan of that sort of hinting...

Any way if they are willing to be part of the project and improve/maintain/extend a font that would be wossome, We defnetly need a light variant of a font so we can target the mobile space and so on...

I would much prefer a new font, that folows the new font trends such as Nokia PURE but also integers a bit of kde branding values of intemporal elegance, with a twist of 70's modernism.

There are already Lato Light and Lato Hairline. All variants are in the Google Web Fonts Lato page.

If you give permission on behalf of KDE, I'll contact Łukasz.

Prerequisites for KDE workspace font:
- Internationalisation - Lato version form GWF is not
- Proper kerning and hinting - It doesn't seem to be in your screenshot, but the version on the website looks ok. Have no clue what can be the problem.

Unrelated, i like the font if it can be altered to fulfil the prereqs.

fix:
 - the hinting is bad in browser as well - just with a right size.

... and so as to avoid NIH'ing here too much -> is there an existing Free font we can use that would work well with our graphic design direction, including the ones that Android, GNOME Shell and Uniy use? Creating a new font just for the sake of having something unique which will take a long time and require maintenance sounds a lot more risky than re-use of something that exists.

@aseigo ++++ yeap, anything along this lines, and i have tried to convince font forgers before, would be start with a decorative font, that maybe maybe could be then done as a screen font...I see this as a work of the magnitude of oxygen icons, and would need to be some one willing to be part of the project an d not a one time thing...

I would not want somthing as Ubuntu font that was externaly made and even thought very pretty and decorative does not realy stand out well in the screen in the small usable sizes....

For a good time I only liked as screen fonts the ones made by the guys at Ascender Corp (liberation, droid,  microsofts fonts, etc). with the exception beeing the recent Nokia Pure font by daltonmaag (also made ubuntu). and a few others recently.

Only to provide info: the font, and any of the GWF fonts licensed under OFL can be modified by anyone, under the terms of the SIL Open Font License. That means:

1. The font licensed under SIL OFL can be freely redistributed.
2. We can change everything, but if we do changes, we must change the font name, unless we get permission from the copyright holder.
3. The resulting modified font must be distributed under SIL OFL (a GPL-like requirement)
4. The only limit: we cannot sell a font licensed under OFL by itself.

So, I selected the font not only because I like it, but also because its Free license allows us to solve bugs, introduce more glyphs, and change the shape of the font. We only need a new name to do that.

You, of course, are free to select another font, but, IMHO, the OFL is a hard requirement, just like KDE licensing.

I would not be suprised if that font is in reality a derived font of another font... Very comon problem across many of the supossedly open fonts out there...
Again what we need is some one good willing to start working with us, not some random semi good font we use just becouse its "open"... If we use and ship a font we need to be 110% sure its not a lyability.

Plus we realy need some one with that skill set in kde this days...

Nuno, I selected this font also because it was an unique design. It's impossible to do an absolutely unique design, but there are differences between a font based on, say, Helvetica and Futura, and a cheap ripoff.

If you check at:

http://typoland.com/catalog/

You'll notice this is indeed a good foundry, and the releasing of Lato had Google support, (that's what reads from the description on GWF). This is an unique design, and its shortcomings on screen can be fixed by us, with the OFL. In fact, all the GWF designs are unique, better or worse for the screen, but unique and non infringing. GWF is not a run-off-the-mill freeware font site.

Aaron, the custom font has solely branding purposes, and this turns NIHing into something entirely justifiable... this time ;). If we want KDE to look unique we need an unique font. However, if we don't want that, we can use Dejavu Sans, or whatever we like, just like before.

Finally, no serious font designer will work for free as in price. What we can do is: ensure ourselves they will work for free as in freedom. If we pay for a basic design that satisfies our needs, get the name permission from them, and add the required international glyphs by ourselves, we get the best of all worlds.

If we get them to aprove that use and maybe just maybe be willing to mantain it a bit, aka taking bug requests and so on then taht would be great..

pleas talk to tehm see what they say... 

we can start with decorative font (not for screen use)... and see were we can move from there

http://www.kickstarter.com/discover/categories/design?ref=footer

We can start a project there, asking for funds to design and maintain a custom font to be used, mainly on screen, by the KDE Project. If we get enough funds, then the foundries themselves can do the maintaining, fine-tuning, and the adding of new charsets.

We also can require the resulting work to be licensed under a Free License. That was part of my reasoning behind Lato.

It does not work like that, and can't work like that, if we would start payng for developements in kde, the people alrady working on kde might wonder how come are we not paying them...Only solution is not to folow that path.. 
+ you probaly dont know but a font is not cheep its as expensive has an icon set. wonce I did a n extimative on the price of oxygen and it was in the order od 200.000€ a complete maintained fontset  should be not as expensive but still very very expensive...

Nuno, if you look at the prices there, independent foundries are asking $7,500 for a full font family, licensed freely, with everything we need. Also, those funds would be provided by users like me, not by KDE e.v. It's not 200,000 € and it may represent no financial burden for KDE e.v. either.

Also, I would like to thank you for the work you agreed to do in Oxygen freely as in price. We, KDE users, are grateful for that. However, KDE needs funding. Sebastian Trueg needs funding to do his Nepomuk work, and the sustainability of KDE depends on its capability to get funding. GNOME has it. Ubuntu has funding too. Why can't KDE have some paid developers to do KDE work? And that includes you too, Nuno (design is important in a software stack, after all ;))

Thsi can not be a kde efort, funding for a font...If some external group wnats to pay for it and give us a font that is great, but that would be a individual IDEPENDENT group and would have to do it with no strings atatched. I hope you undrstand what im saying...

Side note... a complete decently kerned font family takes years to make. For 7500 you usualy dont get more than an limited charset with limited licessing.

any way this is not the place to have this discutions so if you dont mind i will close this bug as a works for me....

1. I take it as an authorization to assemble such an independent group.
2. You are right, but I think I'm right too when I say a less than perfect font is a lot better than statu-quo when it's about promotion and marketing.
3. Go ahead, let's prepare the group, and indicate me the relevant place for discussion when I'm done.

Nuno, some developments after this. After all, I am the mediator between that "external group" (composed of me, myself and I, but that may change soon) and KDE.

I've received the following words from Łukasz.

"Hello,
> I've been lobbying about my idea, and it's starting to get traction.
> However, we need funds to enable you to make a proper good design, and
> the KDE community can and should have a chance to contribute money
> towards a new UI font.
That's great news, thanks! Yes, I agree -- we will be preparing a
Kickstarter project.

When Microsoft was preparing its own rebranding and the branding of
Windows Vista, they decided to commission two variants of the Segoe family:

* The "Segoe" family was to be used for general Microsoft branding, for
print and web graphics, and for larger sizes. This family has a large
number of weights, basic screen optimization (hinting), and originally
had only the Latin extended character set. This is quite similar to the
current Lato family (although we'd like to add more characters).

* The "Segoe UI" family only comes with the 4 basic styles (Regular,
Italic, Bold, Bold Italic), has high-quality hinting and a large
character set, including Greek and Cyrillic, and quite a few "dingbat"
characters — arrows, emoticons and other semi-graphical elements. Its
spacing, proportions and the actual adjustment of weights are also
specifically optimized for the screen. In essence, Segoe UI is more like
a "low resolution" or "tiny size" variant of Segoe.

We think it's a very logical model and we'd like to follow a similar path.

So far, we've had some requests and ideas for a possible expansion of
Lato. Here are some key items. They are in no particular order, they
differ a lot when it comes to the actual amount of work required, and
we're looking for input from users such as yourself to help prioritize
and budget that:

a) Basic "Latin extended" character set (for all major European
languages using the Latin script)
b) More extended Latin character set (for smaller languages)
c) phonetic IPA characters
d) Basic Cyrillic (for major languages using the Cyrillic script:
Russian, Ukrainian, Serbian, Bulgarian)
e) Extended Cyrillic (for smaller Cyrillic languages such as Kazakh)
f) Monotonic Greek
g) Polytonic Greek
h) A set of narrow styles for all weights
i) A set of wide styles for all weights
j) Basic set of OpenType glyphs (for fractions, superscripts, subscripts
and other figure styles)
k) Small caps for all supported characters
l) Basic dingbats (triangles, squares, circles, arrows and other
geometric forms)
m) Emoticons and other dingbats specifically useful for UI applications
n) Additional dingbats
o) Mathematical characters
p) One monospaced style (Regular) for code display/programming
q) Additional monospaced styles (Bold, Italic, Bold Italic)
r) A serif companion for the family

As you can see, this is a long list -- practically open-ended.

So the questions that you (or someone at KDE) could answer, would be:

1. Would you like to see any design adjustments to the Lato family to
make it more suitable for UI use? (In general, and also -- if you have
any specific requirements).

2. Do you have any comments for the list of key items above? (Which key
items would you like to have addressed, in what order and on which
timeline).

3. Do you have any other items that you'd like to be added to the key
items list above? 

4. If we were to develop a specialized Lato UI family, what rough idea
of a budget do you think the KDE community would be willing to donate?

BTW: we just published an updated version 1.104 of Lato on
http://www.latofonts.com/ today. Some rendering problems with Adobe
applications and iOS have been resolved. This new version will soon also
be deployed on Google Web Fonts.

Many thanks for your support so far, and we'll be looking forward to
your comments.

Best regards,
Łukasz"

I would recommend to download Lato fonts, release 1.104. Lato authors used an autohinting library (and helped with its bugs, too) to improve Lato's hinting, so, it now looks more balanced and with better kerning at low resolutions. Also, about Ivan's complaints, they have added more internationalization.

Łukasz plan is to fund this through Google Kickstarter, following a donation model, and to do a true "Lato UI" font, based on Lato, for the KDE interface. We need publicity to push this through all of our communities. Also, we need to get an estimated amount of money to ask for.

I'm optimistic about this. Nuno, Ivan, what are your thoughts about this?

Think I will need to have a proper look at Lato, one size i do wnat very much is  The light variant...
Some adjustments to to the style peoply would be wossome to make the font fit better with Kde branding "elegance" "natural" "fluid" type of atmosphere.
No coments on the funding. :)

Wonderfull work so far...

I started a project for a 'KDE specific' desktop font family under the Open Font License (OFL) See http://code.newtypography.co.uk
Feedback so far seems mostly positive :)
I had not seen the discussion on making a Lato-KDE font before. As Lato is released under the OFL i could allways 'assimilate' relevant aspects of Lato into my project.

That's the spirit! Now, thanks for your Oxygen prototype!

So :)
I would like to host the fonts' work-in-progress and sources on a KDE Repository. Easy access to downloads, feedback, bugs etc.
Would that be @ http://websvn.kde.org/  ??  or someplace else?  Let me know the best place and i will push the fonts up.

thanks

-v



(In reply to comment #24)
> That's the spirit! Now, thanks for your Oxygen prototype!

Thanks to the ENORMOUS effort of Vernon Adams, this feature request is RESOLVED as FIXED in KDE 4.9.

The Oxygen font work is amazing, and I'm already using it in some computers. It's clearly WIP, btw, but I understand that ;)

Awesome work! :-)

This actually seems a bit premature. I agree Vern's work is great, but we need to come up with a plan for how to get it into the hands of people. Specifically, that would be drawing up the requirements the family will need to satisfy before we can modify a KDE release to default to the Oxygen fonts if installed*, deciding on the form in which we want to release the fonts (bundled with runtime or workspace? separate tarball?) and working with distributions to encourage them to ship with the default intact.

* = If we even want to do this, that is. KDE currently defaults to fontconfig aliases like "Sans" and "Sans Serif", leaving the mapping of those defaults to actual font families up to packages lower in the stack and thus the distributor. We could rely on the distributor to set up Oxygen, or we could make the code explicitly prefer the family.

Unfortunately, we need Oxygen Italic and Oxygen Bold Italic to ship this family as a true sans-serif replacement for all needs. In its current state Oxygen is suitable for interface, however.

Vern has Italic variants planned, though FreeType's faux italics work for the time being.

A bigger problem is coverage for characters outside Latin.

I dont think cantarell or ubuntu font have significant non latin character coverage. Full latin and cyrillic coverage  is perfectly reasonable to aim for. I will look at cantarells character coverage and copy that.

Italic will not be too much work, as they will basically be oblique versions of the roman, with some spacing adjustments.

Ps I am working just on oxygen for the next week or 2, so I am hoping to get the basic latin in full working order in that time. The cyrillic is improving a lot too, but I will expect more work getting that just right. It adds up to major work for one person :) Then it is add extended characters and build italic.

_vern



Sent from Samsung tablet

Eike Hein <hein@kde.org> wrote:

https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=283928

--- Comment #30 from Eike Hein <hein@kde.org> ---
Vern has Italic variants planned, though FreeType's faux italics work for the
time being.

A bigger problem is coverage for characters outside Latin.