Bug 60125

I don't get your point regarding our "attitude". 
All comments, bug reports and whishes are welcome. 
But you have to understand that sometimes your comments 
are not that fundamented. 
Please take some time to get familiar with linux and autotools. 
QMake is an alternative to autotools, you may want to 
try that instead. 
 
Regards 
Amilcar 
The current, self proclaimed BugMaster! :) 

Followup: 
 
Don't use the buglist for this kind of comments. 
We DO have a mailing list: 
http://www.kdevelop.org/index.html?filename=mailinglist.html 
or drop us a line at the channel #kdevelop on the server irc.kde.org using 
ksirc, for example. 
 

I was quite neutral on your comments before, but this is uncalled for.  
  
There are some things you must understand:  
1) I've not yet seen a developer work negatively towards kdevelop.  you may see  
the situation differently but that is only your opinion.  
2) the bugs you have reported to date are very general, non-specific, difficult or  
impossible to implement requests with next to no research behind them to see  
if they could be achived through other means, nor do they come with anything  
useful towards their implementation.  Please learn how to express yourself  
better when reporting bugs, eg.  
http://www.mozilla.org/quality/bug-writing-guidelines.html (just one example,  
general principles more relevant of course)  
3) language barriers.  Non-native english speakers may be trying to be helpful  
but may come across differently because they may not read the subtleties like  
native speakers do.  
  
Please work on point #2 before you proceed with futher suggestions to the  
team.  Rest assured that if you do they will be respected, and someone *may*  
decide to donate their valuable time completing it.  
  
Thankyou.  

Subject: Re:  kdevelop project development team

Amilcar do Carmo Lucas wrote:

>------- You are receiving this mail because: -------
>You reported the bug, or are watching the reporter.
>     
>http://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=60125     
>
>
>
>
>------- Additional Comments From a.lucas@tu-bs.de  2003-06-20 15:27 -------
>I don't get your point regarding our "attitude". 
>All comments, bug reports and whishes are welcome. 
>But you have to understand that sometimes your comments 
>are not that fundamented. 
>Please take some time to get familiar with linux and autotools. 
>QMake is an alternative to autotools, you may want to 
>try that instead. 
> 
>Regards 
>Amilcar 
>The current, self proclaimed BugMaster! :)
>
>  
>

I haven't had the time yet to become familiar with who is who
on the kdevelop project team, but you are already on my list
of people who need to have an attitude change, and who ought
not have a position of decisionmaking responsibility within
the group.

Do you have a position of decisionmaking responsibility?

Sphere.

DON'T FEED THE TROLLS!!!!

Yours,
Rischwa

Sphere wrote: 
> Do you have a position of decisionmaking responsibility?  
 
yes, I do. And if you don't change your attitude I'll be forced to kick your 
butt out of here. 
 
go and PAY tribute to M$, your input is not welcome anymore! 

No.

their attitude, well, works for me. yours doesn't. 

Subject: Re:  kdevelop project development team

Hamish Rodda wrote:

>------- You are receiving this mail because: -------
>You reported the bug, or are watching the reporter.
>     
>http://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=60125     
>
>
>
>
>------- Additional Comments From meddie@yoyo.its.monash.edu.au  2003-06-20 15:38 -------
>I was quite neutral on your comments before, but this is uncalled for.  
>  
>There are some things you must understand:  
>1) I've not yet seen a developer work negatively towards kdevelop.  you may see  
>the situation differently but that is only your opinion.  
>2) the bugs you have reported to date are very general, non-specific, difficult or  
>impossible to implement requests with next to no research behind them to see  
>if they could be achived through other means, nor do they come with anything  
>useful towards their implementation.  Please learn how to express yourself  
>better when reporting bugs, eg.  
>http://www.mozilla.org/quality/bug-writing-guidelines.html (just one example,  
>general principles more relevant of course)  
>3) language barriers.  Non-native english speakers may be trying to be helpful  
>but may come across differently because they may not read the subtleties like  
>native speakers do.  
>  
>Please work on point #2 before you proceed with futher suggestions to the  
>team.  Rest assured that if you do they will be respected, and someone *may*  
>decide to donate their valuable time completing it.  
>  
>Thankyou.
>
>  
>
1.  I'm currently not a kdevelop developer.  On a technical level
I have a steep learning curve ahead of me before I could reasonalby
contribute.  I assume that all the developers work in what they
believe are kdevelop's best interest, but it is rather clear that there
are quite a number of them from the old school who believe that
breaks are put into cars because of operator error.  My opinion is
that a product needs to have a customer focus in order to succeed,
and I am testing gideon (the software product) in order to determine
if it has a customer focus.  This requires examining the development
group.  So far, the results have been mixed, but better than average.
I'm still determining if gideon is worth learning.  If the development
group doesn't have a customer focus then gideon won't be here five
years from now, and it isn't worth my time learning anything about it.

2.  Yes, some of my bugs are very hard to implement fixes for, and
you probably don't have the resources to deal with them.  That is
the correct answer to my requests.  That is not the answer I've gotten
from several programmers.  These programmers have an attitude
which needs to be corrected.  Several other programmers have at
least hinted at the correct answer and attempted to provide
workarounds.

3.  The communication problems I've seen so far have been
conceptual, and although my use of English may have been a
bit hard for some I haven't noticed any real language based
communication problems.  The responses I've seen from obvious
non-native English speakers have either been on the mark or
have been mired in the details of implementation rather than
concerned with determining the functional need and whether
it can be achieved.

Finally, don't tell the user what to do -- ever.  Tell the user what
you can and cannot do for them and provide a workaround if
you have one.  Either that, or stay out of it. RTFM is pure crap.

Sphere.

bugs.kde.org is a technical forum for reporting and tracking bug reports and 
change requests.  
 
Do not abuse bugs.kde.org, thank you.  
 
 

Sphere, 
 
While your recent bug reports are welcome, you have to understand that the focus on some 
of them is much too broad to be of a lot of value.   
 
KDevelop moves in directions that the authors want it to go in.  Since it's a collaboration of 
people who do it as a hobby and not for pay things get done at the whim of the authors.  If 
you have needs for something else in the project, you are welcome to contribute it yourself.  
if there are errors or bugs, people typically step up to fix them to make the product better 
for everyone.  But large shifts in focus require much more thought and development in order 
to happen. 
 
Do these recent requests you've made exist in other linux IDEs?  Eclipse comes to mind.  I'm 
such it has more features in some areas that KDevelop, but it also has much more corporate 
sponsorship.  Perhaps that IDE is more what you're looking for? 
 
Anyway, you have to understand that when you start asking for everything + the kitchen sink 
that you're probably not going to get it in the near term.  I can only presume some developers 
took this to heart as offense because they felt like you are looking down on them.  And, like 
the note above says, a lot of developers don't speak English as a first language so sometimes 
the language barrier may make comments seem different emotionall than they really are. 
 
So, I am requesting that this stops now.  You have filed a number of reports so far, and 
some of them are pending, and some have been resolved.  You are welcome to continue 
filing reports as long as they are specific enough to be realizable by the devs.  However, this 
bug will be closed and remain that way.   
 
If you want to be critical and helpful, you are welcome to do so.  If you want to be critical and 
spiteful, please go away.  It doesn't matter who started it - I am ending it. 

Subject: Re:  kdevelop project development team

Jonas Jacobi wrote:

>------- You are receiving this mail because: -------
>You reported the bug, or are watching the reporter.
>     
>http://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=60125     
>
>
>
>
>------- Additional Comments From j.jacobi@gmx.de  2003-06-20 16:48 -------
>DON'T FEED THE TROLLS!!!!
>
>Yours,
>Rischwa
>
>  
>
But if you don't feed this troll you'll have someone badmouthing
kdeveop.  How well gideon works at the moment isn't very
important to me.  The potential for gideon in the future is very
important to me.

For me, this means examining the kdevelop development process --
you people.  So far, the reviews are mixed, but there are at least
some people here who seem to get it.

KDE in general is rather mixed.  Clearly somone got it when
starting work on KDE, but there's quite a few people working
on KDE who don't get it.


Sphere.

Subject: Re:  kdevelop project development team

Amilcar do Carmo Lucas wrote:

>------- You are receiving this mail because: -------
>You reported the bug, or are watching the reporter.
>     
>http://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=60125     
>
>
>
>
>------- Additional Comments From a.lucas@tu-bs.de  2003-06-20 16:53 -------
>Sphere wrote: 
>  
>
>>Do you have a position of decisionmaking responsibility?  
>>    
>>
> 
>yes, I do. And if you don't change your attitude I'll be forced to kick your 
>butt out of here. 
> 
>go and PAY tribute to M$, your input is not welcome anymore!
>
>  
>
In that case you ought to be fired.  You are not good for the
future of KDE.

Sphere.

Subject: Re:  kdevelop project development team

Daniel Stone wrote:

>------- You are receiving this mail because: -------
>You reported the bug, or are watching the reporter.
>     
>http://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=60125     
>dstone@kde.org changed:
>
>           What    |Removed                     |Added
>----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>             Status|UNCONFIRMED                 |RESOLVED
>         Resolution|                            |WORKSFORME
>
>
>
>------- Additional Comments From dstone@kde.org  2003-06-20 17:16 -------
>their attitude, well, works for me. yours doesn't.
>
>  
>
My attitude is currently the customer attitude.  It would be
different if I was on the project -- but not all that different.
The customer isn't always right, but the customer is always
more right than the programmer.

If my attitude doesn't work for you then why are you bothering
to try to make a product?  If you are just writing the code to
fill your ego then you ought to be doing something else.

Sphere.

> My attitude is currently the customer attitude. 
 Hmm... I can't find you listed as a KDE customer. Which price category are you? 
 

Subject: Re:  kdevelop project development team

Dirk Mueller wrote:

>------- You are receiving this mail because: -------
>You reported the bug, or are watching the reporter.
>     
>http://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=60125     
>mueller@kde.org changed:
>
>           What    |Removed                     |Added
>----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>                 CC|                            |mueller@kde.org
>         Resolution|WORKSFORME                  |INVALID
>
>
>
>------- Additional Comments From mueller@kde.org  2003-06-20 17:27 -------
>bugs.kde.org is a technical forum for reporting and tracking bug reports and 
>change requests.  
> 
>Do not abuse bugs.kde.org, thank you.
>
>  
>
The technical change request is a change in attitude on the part
of some members of the development team.  I happen to
debug at a higher level than most, and the kdevelop team
has some bugs.  (Fewer than most, I might add.)

When I first examined KDE a few years ago it seemed to
have some potential, but it was in a very primitive state.
At this point KDE has achieved some of its' potential, but
is very uneven in achieving what were its' obvious original
goals.  It appears to me that it has achived what it has due
to its' original customer focus, but that the culture of customer
focus is unevenly distributed thoughout the project -- and
probably losing ground.  KDE would be better off with a slower
development cycle and an insistence upon customer focus.

Sphere.

Subject: Re:  kdevelop project development team

Caleb Tennis wrote:

>------- You are receiving this mail because: -------
>You reported the bug, or are watching the reporter.
>     
>http://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=60125     
>
>
>
>
>------- Additional Comments From caleb@aei-tech.com  2003-06-20 17:29 -------
>Sphere, 
> 
>While your recent bug reports are welcome, you have to understand that the focus on some 
>of them is much too broad to be of a lot of value.   
> 
>KDevelop moves in directions that the authors want it to go in.  Since it's a collaboration of 
>people who do it as a hobby and not for pay things get done at the whim of the authors.  If 
>you have needs for something else in the project, you are welcome to contribute it yourself.  
>if there are errors or bugs, people typically step up to fix them to make the product better 
>for everyone.  But large shifts in focus require much more thought and development in order 
>to happen. 
> 
>Do these recent requests you've made exist in other linux IDEs?  Eclipse comes to mind.  I'm 
>such it has more features in some areas that KDevelop, but it also has much more corporate 
>sponsorship.  Perhaps that IDE is more what you're looking for? 
> 
>Anyway, you have to understand that when you start asking for everything + the kitchen sink 
>that you're probably not going to get it in the near term.  I can only presume some developers 
>took this to heart as offense because they felt like you are looking down on them.  And, like 
>the note above says, a lot of developers don't speak English as a first language so sometimes 
>the language barrier may make comments seem different emotionall than they really are. 
> 
>So, I am requesting that this stops now.  You have filed a number of reports so far, and 
>some of them are pending, and some have been resolved.  You are welcome to continue 
>filing reports as long as they are specific enough to be realizable by the devs.  However, this 
>bug will be closed and remain that way.   
> 
>If you want to be critical and helpful, you are welcome to do so.  If you want to be critical and 
>spiteful, please go away.  It doesn't matter who started it - I am ending it.
>
>  
>
I started it.  The question I wanted answered was whether the development
process had a customer focus or not.  The answer I got was that there
was a clash of views and that people without a customer focus had the
upper hand.

Since it seems that customer focus is not a high priority for kdevelop I
guess I'll look elsewhere when I decide how to expend my development
effort.  I may or may not use gideon, but I think I find something else
to help build.

Sphere.

Subject: Re:  kdevelop project development team

Moin Jim!

> The technical change request is a change in attitude on the part
> of some members of the development team.  I happen to
> debug at a higher level than most, and the kdevelop team
> has some bugs.  (Fewer than most, I might add.)

As other people tried to tell you before already, there are not robots 
crawling on bugs.kde.org. there are humans behind this interface, and they 
feel insulted by the way you treat them as stupid monkeys by filing such 
a change request. 

Apparently you're under the false assumption that you're a customer of KDE. 
You're not, because you haven't paid anybody of us for KDE. Therefore using 
the word "customer" is offensive to use. 

If you want to get the attention and the respect you're looking for, then 
try to be constructive and helpful and become a contributor or at least a 
user. Otherwise you will be ignored. Many of us have experience in dealing 
with trolls, and if you don't change your attitude you will be completely 
ignored. 

A very basic principle in human relation is that you can only rule over 
people who respect you. 

Have a nice day,

KDevelop is about community focus, not customer focus.  Read Eric S. Raymond's Cathedral 
and Bazaar for some more insight into the idea.  The people who develop KDE are a subset of 
the entire user base.  We're not targeting ourselves to make a product that has ultimate 
customer focus, we're targeting a product that helps us get our jobs done and that we enjoy 
spending time on.  The KDevelop developers together feel like a family; an ecclectic mix of 
people from various countries all collaborating on a project because we enjoy it.  This is in 
stark contrast from a work environment where you do whatever you can to please the 
customer - a notion that you seem to be stuck on. 
 
Actions speak louder than words - take heed to those you've already said.  When people don't 
like the way things are done they either take over, or start something new.  I suggest the 
latter. 
 
My replies to your comments are done and I encourage everyone else to stop as well.  Your 
bug reports are still welcome, but if the drivel and negativity continues I'll request to revoke 
your bugzilla account.