Bug 355563

Created attachment 95591 [details]
Taskbar since Plasma 5.4.3

Created attachment 95592 [details]
Taskbar in Plasma 5.3

*** Bug 355561 has been marked as a duplicate of this bug. ***

Created attachment 95595 [details]
icons from toolbar

Created attachment 95596 [details]
useless borders

I must approve this report. I was thinking Plasma followed KISS and flat principles. However, lastly, it seems we search to come close to 90s design. We add useless borders, colors everywhere (and not complementary), and fat icons with thick lines. 

We even have some people pushing back previous design in a package in order to keep it consistent:
http://kde-look.org/content/show.php/Breeze+Classic+%285.4+look%29?content=174360

Please consider also this post for feedback about the last theme.

https://forum.kde.org/viewtopic.php?f=285&t=129149

@Ondrej Machulda 

> The taskbar used to be clean, without unneeded decorations and very decent. 

It wasn't otherwise I wouldn't have changed it. 

With Plasma 5.4.3  (+ kf 5.16) the taskbar now:
- is full of borders (left, top and upper border for each task), which adds visual noise (it looks lin an Excel table now)

This is visual noise: https://goo.gl/KRQiec - Hmm, so I should add the little square in the corner,  increase the size of the borders, remove the backgrounds and only use one color, to get the full-on Excel look. Neat.

> - uses various colors (what does they even mean?) which attract attention even if nothing happens (just the window is changed)

Task states. Now they're obvious. Ah yes, there's only 3 colors in use doesn't seem like "various" and they're colors from the color scheme. I mean, just FYI.

> - has an shadow which cannot be disabled

The color scheme wasn't changed (this handles the shadows in the taskbar text,).

Now about your screenshot: There's clearly a difference what you uploaded and what I'm running. There's a clear gap between each task, borders don't go over each other (and though I just added it) the minimized windows have a frame to distinguish them from other tasks.

http://i.imgur.com/p34YtmS.png

@Nils

> Created attachment 95595 [details]
icons from toolbar

No. They are not icons from the toolbar they are icons that follow the Breeze guidelines: https://techbase.kde.org/Projects/Usability/HIG/IconDesign

And, as far as I remember (and what I can assure you we both can see...) system tray icons were *already* monochrome. 

> Created attachment 95596 [details]
useless borders

Refer to above.

> I must approve this report. I was thinking Plasma followed KISS and flat principles. However, > lastly, it seems we search to come close to 90s design. We add useless borders, colors everywhere (and not complementary), and fat icons with thick lines.

Ok let's take a look at GUIs from the 90's. By "90's" you are referring to the period between 1990-1999.

http://toastytech.com/guis/bigmacosx.gif - Mac OS
http://netdna.webdesignerdepot.com/uploads/2009/03/windows-95.gif - Windows 95 (probably the source of your comment)

Well in that period everything was gray, had thick borders acting as shadows, pixelized icons and colorized icons in the tray. I mean putting aside the color palettes, the fonts, the perspective of the icons, the fact that Plasma is *white (or dark)* and not gray,  shadows, the overall aesthetic, etc.

Ah, but there's borders, looks like that's enough to call it 90's ain't it.

(Not mine and it is an example) https://goo.gl/0WqG3l - I don't know about you, but, I see a lot of color here. Looks nice.

Something that follows the KISS principle doesn't have to be devoid of everything just because "simplicity". Been there, done that. And it's not following "flat" either.

About the icons, I have no idea what you're seeing. I can clearly see icons that have 1px lines and fill elements. Like it's stated in the guidelines (link's above). Oh and yeah, the previous icons in the previous theme  *did have icons with thicker lines*. Really.

> We even have some people pushing back previous design in a package in order to keep it consistent:
> http://kde-look.org/content/show.php/Breeze+Classic+%285.4+look%29?content=174360

Pushing?. Just like there's people "pushing" for other styles like the Windows or OS X looks?. I don't know how uploading the theme there means "pushing". It's... just there.

Bottomline; if you want the previous theme it's there on kde-look. The task manager had problems and the tray icons didn't match the rest of the icons in Breeze thus the update.

Hi,

I know that we have some papercuts and I hope we can release with the release next month an breeze plasma theme with less papercuts.

About the colors.
The thing is that we have guidelines and there is defined which icons should be monochrome and which not. toolbar icons are monochrome because the user should focus on the working area and not the toolbars. In addition the standard size for the toolbars are 22px icons I include also 16px icons.

So where should we use monochrome icons in plasma. at the configuration area for plasmoids. at the panel meybe but not for the applications (we had monochrome icons for the applications and get a lot of bug reports cause of that). So maybe in the system tray. In the past the system tray icons were bigger than the application icons cause of the horizontal line above the application.

Should we use monochrome icons in the widgets. I would say yes when the icons are used as action icon in something like a toolbar. So in the past the shutdown icons are monochrome and the section icon in the application starter too why not now? Cause they are no toolbar icons. toolbars are 22px in size. in all other sections the icons (application, device, mimetype, .... ) are colored so why in the shoutdown section not?

Uri has his vision. Ok. But plasma has also a vision and you can read the vision in the HIG in specific for the icon guideline. So Uri work according to the plasma vision if you want to see Uri's vision go to the Nitrux webpage.

I hope we can close this bug and start with doing some papercut stuff.

Thanks

@Uri Herrera

> Hmm, so I should add the little square in the corner, increase the size of the borders, remove the backgrounds and only use one color, to get the full-on Excel look. Neat.
I don't understand reason behind your ironic voice, however, my point about borders which are visually cluttering the empty space (and are even inconsistent amongst other plasma parts), and yes, somehow resembles Excel table and taskbar from windows95 was obivous. Is tehere some kind of consensus in Plasma team about this? Will other Parts of plasma introduce also this borders in more components?

> Task states. Now they're obvious. Ah yes, there's only 3 colors in use doesn't seem like "various" and they're colors from the color scheme. I mean, just FYI.
Sorry, not obvious for me. Also as stated by Andreas: "toolbar icons are monochrome because the user should focus on the working area and not the toolbars. " -- so what is the reason behind big blue areas in taskbar? In HIG is written "Use color to draw attention." Does currently active item in takskbar really need your attention? It just highlights currently open window! You don't need to focus there is you are just working with the current window. Yes, active windows should obviously be recognizable when focusing on the taskbar (as was in the previous version) but should not disturb you otherwise. 

I don't know what causes the inconsitence between your screenshot and mine (I use default theme without modifications)... However, it is regression with the new version.

@Uri Herrera

I am really not in the thing with gimp/photoshop, but here a small example which illustrates my state about useless borders:
http://postimg.org/gallery/1394k2mec/d7b4746c/
Sorry for not respecting the gradient, I do not know how to easily keep it. But I think that the gui without border is much more cleaner and simple. 

About the buttons with weirds colors (the previous one with monochrome colors were much better): 
[url=http://postimg.org/image/dssqji01n/][img]http://s17.postimg.org/dssqji01n/actions.jpg[/img][/url]

My opinion is that we are going down the wrong way with the last update.
Maybe the icons have thiner lines but *they are* much bigger and give me a clumsy feeling. Maybe because they are 22px I don't know, but the result is really not nice and seems to be intended for visually impaired person. 
And yes this is my opinion and it is not my intention to hurt someone and as breeze has been really something I appreciate, I may have overreacted to these last changes.

@Ondrej Machulda 

> I don't understand reason behind your ironic voice, however, my point about borders which are visually cluttering the empty space (and are even inconsistent amongst other
> plasma parts), and yes, somehow resembles Excel table and taskbar from windows95 was obivous. Is tehere some kind of consensus in Plasma team about this? 
> Will other Parts of plasma introduce also this borders in more components?

It's *not* inconsistent. 

When you drag your cursor over an item e.g. in Dolphin the selection box has a border. When you hover over an item in Kickoff, Kicker, the Application dashboard, Klipper, system tray expanded area (for the lack of a correct name) or generally a selection in any plasmoid there was/is a border. Of course the buttons and text fields in both the applications and (now) Plasma had a border already around the selection too. It had been there all the time in fact. But just now it's on the task manager too. Heck there's a border (and it has a glowing effect) around this bug system's text box too.

The task manager was the one being inconsistent with the rest of the selection items in the environment.

The blue line (which is in fact a border, the bottom part of the whole frame) is used in Kickoff on its tabs, it's used in the system tray when click through each item (like sound>network>klipper> and so on), it's also used in the tabs of the applications. That gave the impression that the task manager was tabbed, when it's clearly not.

That line works in Kickoff, the applications and the system tray because they are tabs or are tabbed.

> Sorry, not obvious for me. Also as stated by Andreas: "toolbar icons are monochrome because the user should focus on the working area and not the toolbars. "
> -- so what is the reason behind big blue areas in taskbar? 

To differentiate active windows from the rest. 

> In HIG is written "Use color to draw attention." Does currently active item in takskbar really need your attention? It just highlights currently open window! You don't need to focus there is you are just working with the current window. Yes, active windows should obviously be recognizable when focusing on the taskbar (as was in the previous version) but should not disturb you otherwise.

I'm at a loss here. Does it need your attention? - well, yes it should be obvious to the user which of the windows is the active one (because in large screens not everything is not maximized all the time and/or there might be a lot of windows open). 

But please, disturbing is sincerely exaggerating. It's not an "in your face" color. It's a soothe and muted color. It's not glowing, pulsating, vibrating, rotating or anything similar. 

>I don't know what causes the inconsitence between your screenshot and mine (I use default theme without modifications)... However, it is regression with the new version.

Likely the cache or that you have the previous theme in your system or both. I am running the theme from master which by now has small differences with the one in the wild apparently. But It's not a regression and I don't consider, think or see it as such.

@Nils

> I am really not in the thing with gimp/photoshop, but here a small example which illustrates my state about useless borders:
> http://postimg.org/gallery/1394k2mec/d7b4746c/
> Sorry for not respecting the gradient, I do not know how to easily keep it. But I think that the gui without border is much more cleaner and simple.

And I understand that. Breeze doesn't have any gradients if only at the buttons and the notes out of all the elements. However excessively removing borders is not good either It should be clear that something is selected and that it's the active selection or that it isn't.

> About the buttons with weirds colors (the previous one with monochrome colors were much better): 
> [url=http://postimg.org/image/dssqji01n/][img]http://s17.postimg.org/dssqji01n/actions.jpg[/img][/url]

Link is broken. 

> My opinion is that we are going down the wrong way with the last update.

Which is that: your opinion.

> Maybe the icons have thiner lines but *they are* much bigger and give me a clumsy feeling. Maybe because they are 22px I don't know, but the result is really not nice and seems to be intended 

They aren't. If they look like so they're not being scaled correctly (not a problem with the icons since I'm not having these problems). They're the same exact size as before (22). They are the same exact color as before but they follow the icon guidelines now.

> And yes this is my opinion and it is not my intention to hurt someone and as breeze has been really something I appreciate, I may have overreacted to these last changes.

Agreed.

> About the buttons with weirds colors (the previous one with monochrome colors were much better): 
> http://s17.postimg.org/dssqji01n/actions.jpg

OK seen it now. No, they were inconsistent with the icon usage. 32px icons are not monochrome they use colors. Only 16 and 22 are monochrome.

@Uri Herrera

About the colors, I would say simply that I do not understand these. Colors have meaning, they are bound to a brand, a product or a level of information (danger, warning, info, success, ...). Here, why restart is blue and logout purple? Why shutdown is red? I cannot explain these colors, so, it appears to me that they are nor necessary, nor wanted. It is more a disruption in the graphical user interface than anything else. 
Furthermore, it was more consistent with the others things in the dashboard where the things in color were the applications and the things without colors the actions possibles (filter applications and shut the system). 

About the panel, when you look at this picture: http://postimg.org/image/ig54nnf8j/ it appears really clearly for me which one is selected and which are not. I do not think you lose any valuable information at all. You could even change the size of the selected element (through the color area):
http://postimg.org/image/n446fhe8z/
Do you think it is unclear which one is selected and which ones are not? 

Same thing for errors:
http://postimg.org/image/43iznienx/adfa30df/

Anyway, I do think it would be much nicer without borders, at least for icons-only panel. 

About the icons, well, I still prefer the old ones (more regular in geometry) but after reducing the panel height (which have been enlarge following the update), it became better.
So no more strange system tray with over large icons. 
However, like the icons for the launched applications are reduced in order to display these useless border, I found myself with really little icons for applications which are now difficult to see and seems to be displayed from a lower quality resource than the system tray icons.

> Anyway, I do think it would be much nicer without borders, at least for icons-only panel. 

One thing you have to consider, especially with icons-only
panel, are launchers. The theme needs to provide some
form of distinction between a running task and not running
task (a launcher). So the borders are there for running tasks,
no borders are launchers.

@Martin Klapetek

Currently, a launcher is beautifully rendered as a spinner. I think that it is more meaningful than presence of borders.

Created attachment 95621 [details]
Icons-only TM 5.4/5.5 comparison

What do you mean "by a spinner"?

Look at the attached screenshot, Dolphin is not running and is a launcher. Top panel is 5.4, bottom panel is 5.5.

What spinner are you talking about?

Created attachment 95622 [details]
grey for unlaunched apps

Comment on attachment 95622 [details]
grey for unlaunched apps

Oh yes, I did not understand, sorry about that. Then, here, as it is not launched, I would prefer to see them being grey. 
See the attached file.

> Then, here, as it is not launched, I would prefer to see them being grey. 

However grey task is currently (5.4 & 5.5) a minimized task, it has been since ages
so I wouldn't change that one for sake of continuity.

Basically you have four states you need to distinguish:
 - current active window
 - opened window but not active
 - minimized window
 - launcher

I think the current way with the borders being very subtle is actually
not that bad (for reference: https://bugsfiles.kde.org/attachment.cgi?id=95554 )

(In reply to Nils from comment #14)
> About the colors, I would say simply that I do not understand these. Colors
> have meaning, they are bound to a brand, a product or a level of information
> (danger, warning, info, success, ...). Here, why restart is blue and logout
> purple? Why shutdown is red? I cannot explain these colors, so, it appears
> to me that they are nor necessary, nor wanted. It is more a disruption in
> the graphical user interface than anything else. 
> Furthermore, it was more consistent with the others things in the dashboard
> where the things in color were the applications and the things without
> colors the actions possibles (filter applications and shut the system). 

I think this is right: what is the meaning of theses colors? I have troubles to see what the buttons do so I have either to read or to strongly focus on the small symbol in the button. I agree that it's not about the taskbar, should I open another ticket?

> it's not about the taskbar, should I open another ticket?

Yes please, let's keep one issue per ticket.

> However grey task is currently (5.4 & 5.5) a minimized task, it has been since ages so I wouldn't > change that one for sake of continuity.

You have another state which is when there are several applications of the same type launched. I would then use the same type of trick in order to make it clear for the user that the application can be launched.

Here is my clumsy attempt to draw something about that:
http://postimg.org/gallery/2u1wcul18/266eb3c8/

You can then use the universal "play" symbol as a way to explain even to new members of KDE that this application can be launched.

Created attachment 95623 [details]
Windows solution

Another solution would be to lighten/darken the background of the application. Or to keep the previous system which was great and similar to the windows solution.