Bug 25304

*** Bug 29423 has been marked as a duplicate of this bug. ***

*** Bug 45465 has been marked as a duplicate of this bug. ***

*** Bug 46168 has been marked as a duplicate of this bug. ***

*** Bug 49274 has been marked as a duplicate of this bug. ***

partially implemented, see bug #49274 
 

How is the progress on this promising wish? Also might this one make it possible
to change the user for a whole session without shutting down KDE to KDM and then
reloading everthing (let's call it hot-user-swapping)?

Subject: Re:  Multiple simultaneous logins

On Tue, Apr 01, 2003 at 02:20:16AM -0000, Datschge wrote:
> How is the progress on this promising wish?
>
like the comments on this bug (including its duplicates) document.

> hot-user-swapping
>
impossible. at most i could implement a login dialog on top of the old
session, but after that the old session would have to be terminated and
replaced anyway.

With KDE 3.1.x and XFree 1.3 you can open more than one graphic sessions.

In SuSE-8.2 RPMs this feature is already availbale, but not in Debian's KDE. Or does it have to be 
enabled somewhere? Anyways, I think this is implemented. 
 
 

Verified, feature is available in since kde-3.1.   
 
In Red Hat, for example, all one needs is an extra extry (or entries!) in the 
/etc/X11/xdm/Xservers file similar to: 
:1 local reserve /usr/X11R6/bin/X :1 
:2 local reserve /usr/X11R6/bin/X :2 
... 

*grrr* - read _all_ the comments, also those of the duplicate reports, before drawing 
conclusions. the bug is _partially_ resolved and will stay open as such. 
before i make the feature official, two things need to be done: 
- implement session switching into the desktop. alt-ctrl-fx is not what a "normal" 
desktop user calls intuitive 
- not really part of this wish, but usablity-wise a requirement: implement proper 
checks and interactive queries at system shutdown to prevent nuking sessions 
unintentionally. 
 

I agree with Oswald Buddenhagen.  This should stay open until it's been resolved so that it works in 
an intuitive manner.  I think that bug #29423 (linked above) describes perfectly what this feature is 
supposed to do. 
 
I would like to add an addendum to this bug as well, although I'm not entirely certain this is even 
possible.  Sometimes when I'm working in X, an application will crash the X server, which means I 
would have to log on from another computer and kill the X server (thusly unnecessarily killing a lot 
of applications that did not crash.)  Is there a way that KDM could be made to insulate applications 
from an X server crash (i.e. their state could somehow be saved until the X server is back up and 
running?)  If an application somehow crashed the X server with something like this running, that 
could be disasterous. 

Isn't it possible to run kdm always on e.g. term 7 and open every window manager (not 
only KDE) in 8, 9, 10,...? If you close your window manager you go always back to 7. In 
kdm you can see the open sessions and you can switch to them by clicking on them. 
Switching to other open sessions has to be possible too in KDE self too. The only 
problem you have then is that the other window managers do not support 
this...standardisation by www.freedesktop.org needed? 

Subject: Re:  Multiple simultaneous logins

On Mon, Jul 14, 2003 at 05:46:32AM -0000, Rene Horn wrote:
> Is there a way that KDM could be made to insulate applications from an
> X server crash (i.e. their state could somehow be saved until the X
> server is back up and running?)
>
the x-server holds a lot of state information which the apps depend
upon. additionally, one cannot simply substitute one end of the
connection between client and server.  there are two potential solutions
to this problem, one client-side and one server-side. the server-side
variant is relatively often used: use a proxy server that is very
unlikely to crash and make this proxy connect the server. the point
being, that the proxy is able to recover from it's real x-display going
away. such proxies can be either real x proxies (also called
"pseudoserver") with replay functionality (which usually serve other
purposes also; look for "x multiplexer") or a second protocol, like vnc.
in any case, such proxies usually slow down operation and severely cut
down the feature set of the real x server. the client-side solution is,
that the apps hold the entire state they need to recover from an x server
crash. this is theoretically not too hard to achieve with toolkits that
provide as much abstraction as qt does; i heard rumors that gtk2
supports this.
in any case, no support from kdm is necessary, afaict.

Subject: Re:  Multiple simultaneous logins

On Mon, Jul 14, 2003 at 08:19:56AM -0000, Sander Devrieze wrote:
> Isn't it possible to run kdm always on e.g. term 7 and open every
> window manager (not only KDE) in 8, 9, 10,...?
>
and who is supposed to pay for the resources wasted by the almost always
idling x-server and kdm greeter? ;)
i think that popping up a selection window on the currently active
server is the most realistic and user-friendly approach.

> Switching to other open sessions has to be possible too in KDE self
> too.
>
with the above variant not necessarily, but integration into kicker and
the like would be very nice, of course.

> The only problem you have then is that the other window managers do
> not support this...standardisation by www.freedesktop.org needed?
>
we (the gdm guy and me) will consider this.

When my wife has open, running applications in KDE that she wants to keep running while I use the computer, I switch to VT number 1, log in to the console, and type `xinit -- :1'

This works okay, but there are 2 problems:
1) it's not easy, so if I'm on, and my wife wants to use the computer, I have to do it for her; she can't handle the complexity of this "hack"

2) I can't listen to music, because the first instance of kde / arts has grabbed the soundcard, and I get an error when kde starts up saying arts cannot be started.  Similarly, direct rendering is only availible on the Xserver that was started first.  So there's a primary VT that is 100% functional, and any extra ones are only mostly functional.


What I would like to see would be as follows:

Click the big K "start button", select "switch user...", have the screen darken like "logout ...", and be presented with a kdm-like window, you select your username and type your password, and then you're in KDE as yourself, without logging out the other logged in user, just taking over the computer's screen, keyboard, mouse, soundcard, etc.  Logging out would bring back the other user's screen, locked (although maybe you can set an option to not automatically lock it in this situation).

It would be nice this could be done on the same VT with the same Xserver, and done quickly, but I don't know of "use same VT" and "keep apps running" are compatible desires.

In any case, all users need to have access to the full functionality of the computer when they are logged in, including sound card and direct rendering support.

Re: bug #25304c16 (Josiah)

The "Switch user" functionality is already there, at least as of KDE-3.1, just add
:1 local reserve /usr/X11R6/bin/X :1
to /etc/X11/xdm/Xservers
(or whereever that Xservers file is on your distro).

Once that's there, there will now show a new entry in the K(start) menu: Start New Session.

Regarding arts, both users need to set the option: "Autosuspend if idle for X seconds".

Regarding DRI, that's an X bug/feature, which KDE (by itself) can't fix.  Some video cards support multiple displays with DRI, some (most?) don't.

Subject: Re:  Multiple simultaneous logins

> The "Switch user" functionality is already there, at least as of KDE-3.1,
> just add
>
> :1 local reserve /usr/X11R6/bin/X :1
>
> to /etc/X11/xdm/Xservers
> (or whereever that Xservers file is on your distro).
>
> Once that's there, there will now show a new entry in the K(start) menu:
> Start New Session.
>
> Regarding arts, both users need to set the option: "Autosuspend if idle for
> X seconds".
>
> Regarding DRI, that's an X bug/feature, which KDE (by itself) can't fix. 
> Some video cards support multiple displays with DRI, some (most?) don't.

Thanks Rex!  That works pretty well, DRI is by far the least important part 
for me.

1 problem, though.

bash-2.05b$ ls -l /dev/sound/
total 0
crw-------    1 josiah   audio     14,   3 Dec 31  1969 dsp
crw-------    1 josiah   audio     14,  19 Dec 31  1969 dsp1
crw-------    1 josiah   audio     14,   2 Dec 31  1969 midi
crw-------    1 josiah   audio     14,   0 Dec 31  1969 mixer
bash-2.05b$ sudo chgrp users /dev/sound/*
bash-2.05b$ sudo chmod g+rw /dev/sound/*
bash-2.05b$ ls -l /dev/sound/
total 0
crw-rw----    1 josiah   users     14,   3 Dec 31  1969 dsp
crw-rw----    1 josiah   users     14,  19 Dec 31  1969 dsp1
crw-rw----    1 josiah   users     14,   2 Dec 31  1969 midi
crw-rw----    1 josiah   users     14,   0 Dec 31  1969 mixer

I could add my wife and I to the "audio" group, yes, but the permissions are 
always reset to "crw-------" whenever artsd closes, so I have to manually 
change permissions before starting the new XSession every time anyway.

I use gentoo, KDE 3.1.4, and artsd -v says artsd 1.1.4.

This probably had something to do with devfs, I guess?

On the user-swith feature request, though, it would be nice if there were and 
easier way to switch than the old ctrl-alt-f7, ctrl-alt-f8 thing.  Also it 
would be nice if there was an option for 'start new session' to automatically 
lock your screen.

This is easier than what I've been doing, though.  Once I get that /dev/sound/ 
quirk worked out, I'll be pretty well satisfied.  Thanks again!

Those permission changes don't come from artsd or kdm. They come from your PAM. Check your /etc/security/console.perms.

Subject: Re:  Multiple simultaneous logins

> ------- Additional Comments From thiagom@mail.com  2003-12-05 23:56 -------
> Those permission changes don't come from artsd or kdm. They come from your
> PAM. Check your /etc/security/console.perms.

Thanks Thiago.  I've got it working now.  

I even accidentally went to "lock screen" and noticed that it now has a big 
button for "start a new session" so there's an easy way to lock and switch, 
just like I wanted.

The only thing left for this feature request, then, is to make it easier to 
switch than the ctrl-alt-f8 etc.

Also, whenever I switch sessions, whether it's by "start new session" or 
lock->start new session, there's always the windows explaining the 
ctrl-alt-f8 thing.  As long as we're still doing it that way, there should at 
least be a checkbox "Don't show this message again."  I newbie might need to 
read it once or twice to understand, but it's annoying that you can't turn it 
off and you always have to click another button before the new session.

We also need to get the distros to support the existing multiple desktop 
feature.  In order to get it working I had to:

1) be annoyed that it was missing for long enough to finally want to do 
something about it.

2) register at bugs.kde.org to make a feature request.

3) search to see if it was already requested as a feature

4) comment on my situation and what I would like to see

5) find out that I can edit a little known file (/etc/X11/xdm/Xservers) to 
(mostly) enable the feature as it already exists (mostly).

6) find out that sound doesn't work.

7) make another comment on my situation.

8) find out that I can edit an even less known file (at leat to me) 
(/etc/security/console.perms), and after playing with it for a while and 
learning how it works, finally edit it and have things work.

Maybe we can solve this with a new section in the login manager section of the 
system administration section of the control panel.  You could check a box 
that says "enable mulitple simultanious XSessions" and maybe a check box 
labeled "allow all XSessions access to sound card".  You'll probably need a 
text box (or number widget?  I'm not a GUI programmer... Maybe I should 
learn) labeled "maximum number of XSessions" so it knows how many lines to 
add to "/etc/X11/xdm/Xservers".

Is that a good usability feature to bring this great feature to the masses, or 
is it overstepping the bounds of a Desktop and into the realm that should be 
left to the distro?

All that was said here is good and I can't wait to have this done :-)

But I've one additionnal suggestion :
As a non-newbie user I like Ctrl+Alt+Fx : they are very fast and don't need any mouse access !

The only thing I hate to use them is that a defined user session is never in the same VT and I must try Ctrl+Alt+F7, and then Ctrl+Alt+F8, and then Ctrl+Alt+F9 (and eventually so start X servers that are not started yet : it's time consuming) because I can't know or remember who have already started a session, and where (and if X has decided that today the first server that will start will be the F8, and tomorrow this will be the F9...).

So, I would like to (in addition of the graphical ways, of course) be able to say "Ctrl+Alt+F7" is for Me, "Ctrl+Alt+F8" is for my girlfriend and then go back to the PC and directly type Ctrl+Alt+F7 to go back to my session and eventually start it (this hotkey/server is defined to me so I haven't to try all 2 other X servers)...

I know this cannot be done (espetially with X caprices and to not have an iddle server in more than the 3 others) so I propose a thing :

In KDM configuration module, allow to define hotkeys attached to each users (e.g. Ctrl+Alt+S for me (Seb), Ctrl+Alt+M for Melanie, Ctrl+Alt+J for Jean etc...) and then pressing those hotkeys will call the new K-user-switch functions to define if the user has started session and re-open it or open a new server for her...
It's very simple, fast, elegant and conveniant way to switch quikly with the keyboard and just need to connect the shortcuts to the new K-user-switch feature.

In other subject, the MAC OS X fast user switching menu (in the "kicker") is a very good thing : fast (no need to load a complete dialog or another server for "KDM") and intuitive.
Is that will be done in KDE ?
We can have this sort of menu :
[=== Seb ==========]
|  Lock            |
|  Disconect       |
|=== Swich to =====|
|O Seb             |
|o Steph           |
|  M.A.            |
|=== Power ========|
|  Power off       |
|  Suspend to disk |
|  Suspend to RAM  |
|  Restart         |
|  Restart Windows |
--------------------

Thanks.
You do a very great work !

Thanks, guys! I've also got it working now!
In the case someone else is interested, the line I added to my /etc/security/
console.perms was
<xconsole> 0660 <sound>      0600 root.audio
(I'm using Gentoo)

My situation was pretty much the same as Josiah's (one computer for the whole 
family, "startx -- :1 to cumbersome"). I'd be very happy if this 
functionality could be found in all of the major distributions. Perhaps KDE 
could have such a configuration dialog as Josiah suggested, that'd be great. 
Of course the distributors could (and should) support it out of the box. 
Especially for desktop oriented distributions (such as Mandrake) this could 
be a real killer feature (at least it's one for me!).

Again, many thanks!

Gilles

IMO, this would best be implemented in the X server (along with the ability to change the physical display that X displays on; eg change from video card to null or from null to VNC)

Multiple X servers may be the easiest way to do this, but what about something like virtual desktops? Would permissions make this impractical for fast user switching?

*** Bug 77794 has been marked as a duplicate of this bug. ***

Looking at this bug, I see almost everything I asked for in my duplicate bug #77794.

User switching is already implemented, and it's great, thanks very much.  (Funny how many of us have non-technical girlfriends or wives to use as examples for this bug.)

What I'd most like to see now is Sebastien's idea: a menu that allows me to choose among one of the already running sessions, start a new one, shut down, etc.  That will be simple, intuitive, and great.  My Windows-using friends will drool!

The big problem with kde 3.2(and gnome one) desktop switching is that it start a new X server :( It take so much memory. Is it impossible with XFree architecture to suspend current running kde and to start another one as a different user without starting a new Xserver?

yup, impossible. generic X restriction.

Which is why, among other reasons, this should be mostly implemented in the X server and simply be supported by KDE. What if a user wants to resume their session from a different hardware device (VNC or X forwarding as "devices")?

<< this should be mostly implemented in the X server and simply be supported by KDE. What if a user wants to resume their session from a different hardware device (VNC or X forwarding as "devices")? >>

Can we have a sort of X server "preloading" ala Konqueror ?
For the moment I think no, because each loading server must have control of the graphic card at least one time to finish it's initialisation ! This part must be solved by XFree (or other X servers/succesors).

The other problem of the current KDE implementation is that a new user will be logged in the next near available screen (first Ctrl+Alt+F7, then Ctrl+Alt+F8...). Find our session depend on when we have logged in.
Would be good if KDE propose :
- Overloaded shortcuts, well defined for each users. Is it possible to desactivate the Ctrl+Alt+Fx keys ??? And then replace Ctrl+Alt+F7 for a defined user, Ctrl+Alt+F8 for another one (as already said)... Type those hotkeys would call KDM "deamon" who will redirect to the real current session screen of that user.
- A menu ala MAC OS to switch users : same way.
- A borderless window that cover all the desktop and "imitate" KDM or provide a minimalist version of KDM (or a full screen mode of hte previous MAC menu). IS it the functionment of Windows xp ??

Because we can't load as numerous X servers as there are users (especially in an university with all the students, or a firm, or aven with a bug family !!).

Is there in KDM a (source) code to know which users are already logged in (and on which X server) ? Or a way to switch so in this server ?
I could try to look at the code and begin to do some trys (but I'm not familiarized with this sort of programming... Is actual KDM use DCOP to know if a user is already logged ?).

I would want to add a new request.
It can be applied now (for KDE 3.3), I think, because it doesn't need havy changes :

When multiple sessions are opened and a user choose Shutdown (or Restart, etc...), display a MessageBox that ask her if he want to end all sessions of other users.
Of course, configure this behaviour :
- Home users do not want to call all theire family each evening to tell them to log out : the informative message (YesOrNo) is fine in the case save is needed. It's quick : just a Enter key press and we can go to bed (without have to end all sessions manually) ;-)
- "Massive" multi-users do not want unknow peoples to close sessions of other users : disable it for them.

What is currently available is already a good start, but in order to be really usable, it needs a nicer interface. I agree completely with previous posters: a menu in kicker should be added for easier handling of multiple sessions. Also, the same menu should be available in KDM chooser, so it's _easy_ to switch to an already open session instead of starting a new one. And the dialog which appears when starting a new session from the kicker menu should have a checkbox indicating whether we want current session's screen to become locked or not. Fast user switching is really nice, I think it needs some more "publicity". I, for one example, found out that I don't need to manually start new X servers but can use "reserve" servers in KDM's config by accident: I was grepping the whole kde docs for some keyword and found the KDM readme. Without this incident, I would never know KDM could start new sessions the user friendly way.

I've wanted to point this interesting software :
GRUB NextBoot
http://www.kde-apps.org/content/show.php?content=12140

As it's name say it well : it do approximatly the same as KDM can do with LILO : set which OS will be started at next boot.

I hope it will be integrated (or adapted, of course) to standard KDM !
So, no matter if the user use LILO or GRUB : he could start his PC with the OS he want.

Idem if a MAC OS X style menu is added to KMenu or kicker or even better on time we log off : allow to reboot directly to another OS bypassing KDM...

Must I post another bug report ??

> Must I post another bug report ?? 

Yes, you should, as the suggestions you've made go well beyond to scope of *this* report.

SUSE 9.1's KDE packages have this implemented (patch kdm-switch-users.diff).
(Just wanted to mention it even if Ossi doesn't like the implementation ;)

This doesn't seem to be working for me.

/etc/X11/xdm/Xservers:

# $Xorg: Xserv.ws.cpp,v 1.3 2000/08/17 19:54:17 cpqbld Exp $
:0 local /usr/X11R6/bin/X 
:1 local reserve /usr/X11R6/bin/X :1

distro: RedHat Fedora Core 1 (up2dated)
KDE: 3.1.4-6

Neither the K menu nor the lock screen has a "Start new session" button.

Adding to /etc/X11/xdm/Xservers
:1 local reserve /usr/X11R6/bin/X :1
has always worked for all our rh73,rh80,rh90,fc1 boxes running kde >= 3.1

Note:
1. you have to restart X after making this change.
2. (Apparently) not all X drivers/video cards support multiple X servers, and even if they do, dri (hardware-accel opengl, etc) is supported only on the first display (at least this was the reasoning redhat used to reject my request to support this out-of-the-box)

> This doesn't seem to be working for me. 

> /etc/X11/xdm/Xservers:

It used to be that file for me, but now it's this file:

/usr/kde/3.2/share/config/kdm/Xservers

When I upgraded to 3.2 it stopped paying attention to '/etc/X11/xdm/Xservers'.  If you're using 2.1.4-6, you probably need this file:

/usr/kde/3.1/share/config/kdm/Xservers

Start New Session is definitely no good. Running multiple X servers is just stupid. If X doesn't support fast user switching, then it should. And KDM looks lame next to win xp's login manager btw.

And win xp's login manager behaves lame next to KDM, so please don't start flamewar here... (And this was useless comment as was the earlier one too)

i would like the menu with all open sessions too. And perhaps not only the x-session should be shown. If i login tty[n] then it should be shown to.

I do not currently know the password for this mail account. Until my session times out, I will continue to respond as usual, but once it does I may not be able to check it until Yahoo resets my password.
If you wish your message to be read soon, I suggest forwarding/CCing it to lukejr@benedictine.edu also.
Hopefully, this won't go to mailing lists, but in case it does, Yahoo's help says it should only be sent once to each person anyway so this should be the only time you get it.

--------------------


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------- Additional Comments From angel_azrael gmx de  2004-06-10 00:30 -------
i would like the menu with all open sessions too. And perhaps no
_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

Hey, is this going to be implemented in future version of kde such as 3.3 or 4.0 ? I've tried to use SuSE 9.1 and it works well - what about aplying it's patch by default in kdm 3.3 (or well... 3.3.1?) - already bug fixed by SuSE devs and not that difficult - just patch !

Why not make some kind of X Wrapper? My idea is the following:

- The first application is the virtual X server (vx-server), which is something like vnc-server.
- The second application is the virtual X client (vx-client). It runs on the real X server and displays the contents of one of the chosen vx-servers.
- An application can request vx-client to connect to a different vx-server. Kicker (and gnome-panel) could use this to offer user-friendly user switching.

In this way, you don't need modifications to X.org/XFree86, and more importantly, it works with every window manager. It has a little overhead for a single session, but when running multiple sessions it should have less overhead than multiple X servers. It should even be rather easy with this model to take a session from one X-server to another one.

Would such a thing be possible?

implemented for kde 3.4.

How has it been implemented ?

There must be some mistake. Clicking "logout" from the K-menu does not give me 
the option to switch user (without closing open programs). Only the usual 
"end current session", "restart", "turn off".

I am using kdm of course.

Ah, sorry, it is KDE 3.4 :-)

On Sun, Aug 29, 2004 at 09:41:06AM -0000, Maurizio Colucci wrote:
> Clicking "logout" from the K-menu does not give me the option to
> switch user (without closing open programs).
>
and never will. i see no purpose in putting this feature _there_. you
can reach it via the k menu, the desktop menu, the screenlocker and
alt-ctrl-ins.

This feature is so dawn usefull (in home systems at least) that I really think it should be included in a update to KDE 3.3 because AFAIK the timeframe for KDE 3.4/4.0 could be very very long.

*** Bug 89023 has been marked as a duplicate of this bug. ***

Oswald: thanks.  I finally have KDE 3.4 now, and the session management is greatly improved.  Over and out.  Andrew.