Bug 225471

I am not willing to accept "the interface is horrible" and some mockup thrown at us.
Please detail what you intend to change, and give references to the guidelines you mention.

Well you need to accept it regardless. Mockups are one of the only ways users have to show a developer good changes to the interface. It allows users to help with the development process. My mockup on KDE-Look.org is not finished(Im still making revisions) but it also has explanations for changes in the description as well as why. If you'd like me to clarify my reasonings Im more than willing to respond to criticisms and make changes to the mockup if necessary. Digikam needs to come up with a vision for what it wants to do and how it should do it. I suggest Digikam conduct some user research studies. As for references, I work on Accounting Information Systems and have taken classes that cover interface usability and KDE has a set of guidelines(very incomplete) for applications on Techbase thats interesting. Also, I compared Digikam's UI to several other Photo Management applications.

This idea could be done by distributors because I myself dont feel that professionals would like to see photo ratings, tags, creating date only on sidepanel one by one function.

When we do have rating, tags and modification time under the thumbnail, a user can see right away the information from multiple photos without clicking trought them or doing a "blind filter" by filtering the view to see what photos would have 3, 4 or 5 stars. 

And we do have thumbnails listing possible to place by name, date and rating. 

Now for users who want this (they can be distributors etc) suggested thing. They can go to settings and turn off all metadata shown under thumbnails. Then they can resize the thumbnail size to smaller and they end up to view that has no empty space between photos.

But rows and colums are tied to have at least the 1:1 format when disabled all metadata under thumbnails, because the photos can be horizontal or vertical position. http://imagebin.ca/view/reS8PG-C.html

We already have had the discussions about some metadata being top of the thumbnails on album view, example the rating stars. And we have ended up to have the current way for that to not block the thumbnails what is very important information on album view, like the rating and other metadata itself if user wants to see them.

The sidepanels in the mockup has the normal usability flaw that does not allow hiding them. I am not willing to use a digiKam on 1280x800 or under (netbooks etc) resolution screens if I can not hide the sidepanel when needed. I already hide them even with over 1920x1200 resolution because sometimes I do not need other side.

And what someone says "dublicate" like having tags on left and right, I say it a feature because I can do mure accurate searching and filtering together. Like first choosing a whole tag parent from left and then from right to do more accurate filtering with parent, childrend or just selected. Something what I can not do on any other photo management application (lightroom included). 

What I think is that we should continue doing what we are doing, making a sane defaults what works for the most people but does not stop skilled users to get their needed tools. The starting wizard is great example of that what ask basic questions and makes default settings by that. What we could do, is think is there any way to include 1 question more without that comes a too long wizard. Very difficult question to answer. 

Because we are trying to offer a photo management application for:

Home users:
* Takes photos with cellphones and Pocket cameras (less DSRL owners)
* Owns a normal computer, usually normal laptop with small screen and one hard-drive
* Receive photos from friends
* Wants to share own photos
* Wants to make a slideshow for friends
* Does basic tagging
* Does basic fixing like removed redeyes, crops, rotates and basic lighting.


Amateurs:
* Owns DSLR and might take hundreds of photos on day
* Owns external drives, mayby other computers and second monitor.
* Receive photos from friends
* Maintain own gallery
* Does complex searches among photos (might own GPS locator) 
* Manipulates photos and edit them usually in complex ways (HDR/Panorama, fixing spots and perspective)
* Makes backups trought digiKam

Professionals:
* Owns multiple DSLR's and might take a thousands of photos on day
* Owns multiple computers (for journeys and home/studio etc), multiple external drives (backups, different album locations on network shares etc) and multiple monitors (Not so rare to have 2-3 big screens where one has album and one editor while third one showing the last shot photo from camera)
* Receive photos from other photographers
* Maintain multiple own galleries
* Shows multiple slideshows of own work to customers
* Does very complex searches and edits lots of metadata (copyrights etc)
* Maintains multiple different versions from same photos.
* Does need to have complete control to all RAW-processing.

We just end up that we can not have one simple GUI for everyone. We can not integrate image editor to photo management window. We can not just hide metadata and other important features to context menu or to sidepanels and just show "pictures" like user would be browsing the own music collection. 

And I say we do very good job on balancing between all these three lines. We do need help to find problems and find a solution for them, but the solution need to take all three different groups of users in care. 

We are not trying to fight against Gwenview or F-Spot. They have own home users. But we are not either trying to be too complext for basic user.

Great response! Are you the same person as Fri13 on kde-look.org by any chance?
I've been thinking a lot about showing the file name, rating, etc underneath the thumbnails in Album view and I think Ive changed my mind. I think it SHOULD be available, but I think it should be turned off by default(or just show simple information like name and date created as the default) and you can later go into the settings and specify the metadata you want shown below/above the image. I'm not going to make a mockup of metadata in album view though, at least not anytime soon.  

“The sidepanels in the mockup has the normal usability flaw that does not allow
hiding them.”

That's why I added the show/hide “sidebar” buttons to the toolbars on the left and right sides (Same as how Firefox's Bookmark button works). This actually saves the user a lot of horizontal space. In the current setup its impossible to get rid of the half-inch on each side that displays the vertical tabs. I will be experimenting with tabs at the top of the panel though, as that is how its “supposed” to be according to usability guidelines. 

“And what someone says "duplicate" like having tags on left and right, I say it
a feature because I can do more accurate searching and filtering together. Like
first choosing a whole tag parent from left and then from right to do more
accurate filtering with parent, children or just selected.”

The same thing can be done by entering the tag's name into the search bar and then searching through the results. This is better than scrolling through a long list of tag names, and that list should already be included in the Tags sidebar on the right-hand side anyways. You're showing multiple views of the same list of tags, whereas you can combine it to make the tags selectable as a group as well as editable in the same Tab view. Also, you should not need to show two Marble globes in the sidepanel in order to do map searches and geolocation.

“We can not integrate image editor to photo management window.”

I think having the “Editor” tab listed may confuse some people as to what would be available from that view. Im not proposing adding ANY new image editing abilities to Digikam, and it would not be a mashing of Digikam and Showfoto's capabilities. The Image tab would display those simple editing options that are available already in Digikam, but are not located together in a cohesive or easy to use way. Most of those options are currently located under “Tools” in the main menu and some in the context menu.

“What I think is that we should continue doing what we are doing, making a sane
defaults what works for the most people but does not stop skilled users to get
their needed tools.”

I DO NOT want to get rid of functionality in Digikam. Digikam's features are what makes it such a great program, but I want to get rid of the layout design clutter, duplication, and unstructured menu and view organization. I'm not just saying “Hey! This doesnt work, go fix it!” Im working on coming up with solutions to how to fix things. The biggest problem at this point is that it just takes too long to make the mockups and then explaining how each thing works. BTW, the changes Im proposing are NOT drastic changes to Digikam. It'll still be toolbar, right and left sidepanels, and main middle view and keeps all the same features it has now.

“We just end up that we can not have one simple GUI for everyone. We can not
integrate image editor to photo management window.”

I dont think this is true. The way Digikam looks right now it would maybe be impossible to come up with a great default view that works for everyone, but I think that is a flaw in Digikam's basic layout that needs to be addressed. I think I can come up with a GUI that has a great simple default view that lets everyone do the most frequent photo management tasks, while still keeping the flexibility to show and hide information, change the tabs/toolbars/panels, and maintain overall control of how digikam looks and feels without interfering with those advanced tools and tasks that advanced users want. But it has to start by putting tools/options in the right places and having a clear idea of how Digikam should look and work. Right now Digikam is not PROGRESSING, and a start for this progression should come with the porting the view to Qt4. But I want you guys to PLAN!!! how things should look and work in the best possible layout and design.

"That's why I added the show/hide “sidebar” buttons to the toolbars on the left
and right sides (Same as how Firefox's Bookmark button works). This actually
saves the user a lot of horizontal space. In the current setup its impossible
to get rid of the half-inch on each side that displays the vertical tabs"

The horizontal space is not the problem. The vertical space is the problem. And the functionality what we get whit current setup is better than what can be achived by adding a "Hide sidepanel" button on toolbar.

a) User can hide the toolbar and is not forced to have it.
b) Single click show/hide functionality with wanted sidepanel without need to first show the panel.
c) Two buttons less in the toolbar (there is space problem on smaller screens when toolbars having a text side).
d) Possibility to have a tabs on top of current tools (tabs like Exif, XMP etc).

"I will be experimenting with tabs at the top of the panel though, as that is how
its “supposed” to be according to usability guidelines."

That is one thing what I am suggesting for current setup, that we move as much possible some functions in showFoto to up. Like now there is great job done to get the preview buttons and view tools to one collected place away from the image view area. Here is now very old mockup http://saukonpaa.com/projects/mockups/digikam_sidepanel_firstdraft.jpeg
That is from showFoto for tools moved from menu (still visible) to sidepanel where tools are located (it was not polished at all). The idea is to use more and more the sidepanels so the user can even hide the menubar (what is now possible with Ctrl+M) because tools could be moved away from there. But that is one (big) usability suggestion what I am making and I have problems with it because digiKam developers are too fast to follow while they fix bugs etc. Like think that you have the filter panel at bottom of the tools sidepanel. From there you can just type "curves" or "black" and you would get to right panel the tools what would do something to that. And buttons would be even at different sizes for different size screens. Idea is that user can if wanted to hide all bars and have only photo + sidepanel open. But that is other subject. 

And the current sidepanel implentation is not liked by some people because one small problem, the text is sideway and while trying to find out a way to get rid of that, we end up to have bigger problems. Sometimes it is wiser to have a small problem to gain bigger features somewhere else.

"The same thing can be done by entering the tag's name into the search bar and
then searching through the results. This is better than scrolling through a
long list of tag names, and that list should already be included in the Tags
sidebar on the right-hand side anyways."

It is not same thing. That is a blind-filtering. User is trying to remember tags and actually is searching tags and not filtering them. The tag tree is powerfull because you can see the available tags. The filtering is to help when you already remember/know what you are looking for. Thats why the one single "superbar" to search tags, metadata, locations etc does not work because it is like Googling trought your own database without knowing what data there is possible to be.

And both tags bars on left and right have different functions on them. The left side is like selecting single information. A one tag, one album, one map location or one date. On the right side you get the information but the tag is cloned there to allow you manage the filtered data what you got from left search. They are not duplicate work but they completes each other.
And this way we can solve one big problem what comes when starting to have lots of data, user can search just the specific data from wanted place without getting wrong results. Example you have tags of every person by their name. Then you have renamed files to have names of the persons. Then there is map places and albums with same kind names. Now if you search in one "superbar" search a wanted tag or person. You get everything in front of you. We should make a somekind drop down list or selection that allows user to choose what data it will be searched. Like on Google page has Images, Maps, Books, News, Internet etc. So now when we have simple filter/search functions on every wanted place (tags, map, albums, dates) user does the filtering in the first place by using the wanted tool.

This is one problem what caused that we need to have a normal search and a advanced search separated.

"You're showing multiple views of the
same list of tags, whereas you can combine it to make the tags selectable as a
group as well as editable in the same Tab view. Also, you should not need to
show two Marble globes in the sidepanel in order to do map searches and
geolocation."

They are not about duplicating the same search. Again example. You do a location search on left by dragging a box around wanted area. Now you get all that area photos in front of you. How do you filter just one person from the massive amount of photos? Example I could want only to be seen photos where this one person is but no one else. Now I can do it from right sidepanel. The idea is to give the user simple but powerfull tools what the user itself can mixture to get wanted photos in front of them. We can not build a "black box" full of photos in front of user what she/he then needs to search with quessing and remembering all what he wants. He needs to have possiblity to see the choises and it makes the management lots easier.

"but I want to get rid of the layout design
clutter, duplication, and unstructured menu and view organization."

I see your point. But where you see duplication and unstructured menu (there is always polishing on the menus) I see simple and powerfull tools what I can mix together. That is the one feature what many other photographers who use Lightroom in daily use just amaze when I can pull wanted photos in matter of seconds without wrong results. It is like having two hands and not just one ;-)

"Im working on coming up with
solutions to how to fix things."

That is good thing what you are doing. And discussing about them is good so that we can find new ideas and solutions what to think.

"The biggest problem at this point is that it
just takes too long to make the mockups and then explaining how each thing
works."

So it usually does. But mockups can be for developers a good "frame" where they can build their own ideas later.

"BTW, the changes Im proposing are NOT drastic changes to Digikam. It'll
still be toolbar, right and left sidepanels, and main middle view and keeps all
the same features it has now."

Yes it still would be but as I tried to explain, the functionality to use the features would change, even thet the UI itself would not be changed (like the Amarok 2 got the context-view middle of the collection and playlist what many disliked).

"But it has to
start by putting tools/options in the right places and having a clear idea of
how Digikam should look and work."

That is one current big problem. We have two sidepanels with both having great functionality and supporting each other (as I explained) and just having one tool (like tags) to do everything in one place (only one tag panel/tab with mixed functuons) is not always the best choise.

I added a new screenshot showing the "Tags" sidepanel. Please check it over and let me know what you think!


Here's my responses to Fri Duh's last post:

"The horizontal space is not the problem."

You say this because the way the options currently are presented means that the sidepanels have long lists of features and options. Im working on consolidating the sidepanels so that there is plenty of room, and having more horizontal space means more space for viewing your photos, or for when you have two images side by side like with Light Room.

"User can hide the [current] toolbar and is not forced to have it."

I disagree. With my design you can press a button, hit shortcut keys, or use the menu to remove the sidepanels completely, but the way it is currently for Digikam the toolbar on the left and right sides of the screen always take up space.

"c) Two buttons less in the toolbar (there is space problem on smaller screens when toolbars having a text side)."

Small screens are in no way Digikams target market. But besides which, having it display as "Icons only" will show only two small icons on each side, and if you'll notice, I changed around the toolbar so that its showing the most commonly used controls and this takes up less space than Digikam's current Toolbar.

"d) Possibility to have a tabs on top of current tools (tabs like Exif, XMP etc)."

If designed right, extra tabs should not be needed. But I will grant that having all that extra space to stick things is nice, its just not very user friendly or well designed.

"That is one thing what I am suggesting for current setup, that we move as much possible some functions in showFoto to up."

That's good! After making the mockups I believe that having the search and filter bars at the top really helps make things look better and more consistent with the rest of KDE.

"And the current sidepanel implentation is not liked by some people because one small problem, the text is sideway and while trying to find out a way to get rid of that, we end up to have bigger problems. Sometimes it is wiser to have a small problem to gain bigger features somewhere else."

Just because the solution hasnt been found yet doesnt mean it cant be fixed! Im very optimistic about this. I know I'm receiving literally no support but I have pretty clear ideas about how this could work, and work really well and I'll continue to make more mockups to show the developers a way to work out the mess.

"The tag tree is powerfull because you can see the available tags. The filtering is to help when you already remember/know what you are looking for."

Please check out my most recent screenshot that shows how the "Tags" sidepanel could work at both managing tags as well as filtering through them. Please let me know what you think.

"And both tags bars on left and right have different functions on them. The left side is like selecting single information. A one tag, one album, one map location or one date. On the right side you get the information but the tag is
cloned there to allow you manage the filtered data what you got from left search. 

The Left sidepanel is for finding and selecting images. The Right sidepanel is for viewing and manipulating the images properties (eg: tags, metadata, caption, crop, red-eye). My design is the same basic goal as Digikam's, but its presented in a clearer way, while still maintaining all of the same functions. 

"Example you have tags of every person by their name. Then you have renamed files to have names of the persons. Then there is map places and albums with same kind names. Now if you search in one "superbar" search a wanted tag or person. You get everything in front of you.We should make some kind of drop down list or selection that allows user to choose what data it will be searched."

That is why the Albums tab searches through your folders, and the Places tab will search through your locations and the Tag tab on the right will let you search through your tags. The "Search Bar" will be configurable to decide what results get displayed, but sometimes you want to find ALL of those things in the same place, and the "superbar" would make this possible as well as simple. Thank you for the idea of configuring the Search results though, I will add that into my mockups.

This is one problem what caused that we need to have a normal search and a
advanced search separated.

"You do a location search on left by dragging a box around wanted area. Now you get all that area photos in front of you. How do you filter just one person from the massive amount of photos?"

You can enter their name in the search and it will filter the "Places" results to show the photos of that person by filename, tag, or metadata. Or if you're using tags for people, you can click on the tag representing them and get the photos that way. You keep saying "to find people" but currently Digikam doesnt have special controls for people in images. Are you saving peoples names as tags and searching for them in your tags? Is that what you mean?

"simple and powerfull tools what I can mix together"

Powerful is right! I love Digikam's features, but it is not anywhere near simple. And I'm working on designing them to work even more closely together, with less panels and windows and clearer menus and controls.

"That is good thing what you are doing. And discussing about them is good so that we can find new ideas and solutions what to think."

And thank you for your feedback! I've already made several changes based off your comments. Please continue to let me know if you see anything that you think would not work or work well.

"Yes it still would be but as I tried to explain, the functionality to use the features would change, even thet the UI itself would not be changed"

Functionality is what I'm working towards. Changes do take a second to adapt to, but good changes can make adapting worth it.

"That is one current big problem. We have two sidepanels with both having great functionality and supporting each other (as I explained) and just having one tool (like tags) to do everything in one place (only one tag panel/tab with
mixed functuons) is not always the best choice."

The best choice is what I'm trying to find. Look over what I did with the "Tags" panel and tell me what you think. I believe that I have successfully combined the functionality of the two current sidepanels into the one "Tags" tab.

I believe I've found a solution to the "Editor" tab problem. Fri was arguing that Editing controls shouldnt be in digiKam. Whereas, I was trying to keep it all together in one sidepanel, but I can understand wanting to have digiKam for photo management and Showfoto for editing. The biggest problem I had with this setup was with how to batch edit multiple images, but I believe Ive found a solution. 

Remove the "Editor" tab from the mockup and replace it with a "Faces"(or maybe People) tab instead. I thought of this when I saw you talking about adding in face recognition and people tagging.

All photo editing tools will then be moved into Showfoto(I'll start doing mockups for Showfoto eventually)

Batch Editing will be done by selecting multiple images in digiKam and hitting the "Edit" button. The selected photos will be placed in thumbnail view(or just opens a special Batch processing window, lmk which would be best) of Showfoto and can be batch edited, light table, or w/e in the Showfoto window.

I'll make some mockups in the next week or so to better display the changes.

"Batch Editing will be done by selecting multiple images in digiKam and hitting
the "Edit" button. The selected photos will be placed in thumbnail view(or just
opens a special Batch processing window, lmk which would be best) of Showfoto
and can be batch edited, light table, or w/e in the Showfoto window."

That is what I have being designing now about a year. You can select a puch of photos and just bring only those to the image editor for processing (just like they can now being opened in showFoto but needed to have in Image Editor as well). But still there is need for having a simple batch job without image editor what the Batch queue Manager is great for. 

What is needed to do is to get a underlaying technology of workflow processing to work faster that you can fast just set wanted edits to photos and send them as queued to process in background while working with all other tools. I have somewhere older mockups of that.